Dick Allen Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 02:42 PM) Jumping in late here, and while his value is not through the roof, MacDougal still has value, and could be a key piece as a throw in a deal. Too many underestimate the value of pitchers with MacDougals stuff. Every team in the league would be willing to take a chance on him. Look at Aardsma, he was as bad, if not worse than MacDougal last year and we did get two borderline decent prospects for him. While we didn't get much for Aardsma, we still got more for him than what we did for Iguchi last year. With the way some people act, you'd think people with MacDougal's stuff grows on trees. They got crap for Aardsma, and MacDougal stinking AAA up would mean they would even less for him. Why would someone want to give up anything of value for a guy doing what he is doing in AAA in order to see if he can help them win in the major leagues right now? If anyone offered KW anything of value for MacDougal, he would be gone by now.. Don't forget, he also is signed through next season for a couple million a year I believe, far more money than Aardsma was getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 02:00 PM) MacDougal had one very good season (2006), but even that year, signs of his head problems were there (every year, including that one, he's worse in situations like close-and-late, RISP, Runners On, etc.). He was bad in 2007, pretty bad in ST this year, and bad to start 2008. And now he's bad in AAA. MacDougal probably has a little value still, because of his skills. But he's a head case, and he's really only had one good year. He won't fetch much by himself. Have you guys not been watching the crap that teams are picking up in terms of relief arms over the last several years? They'll take anyone who's ever done anything who could possibly do something again. We signed ESTEBAN LOAIZA for the love of god! And Dick, why would we bring him up to the big league team if he's not corrected his problems yet? Simply because he has been a disaster for a year now doesn't mean he won't ever become something again. And while he is making $2 million this season, it's worth more to the club to hold onto him and hope he figures things out again than to DFA him. No one is claiming he's going to be traded for a top prospect; however, he certainly has some value to a team that thinks a change of scenery might serve him well. We all know he would be a guy the Sox would be looking into if he was in another organization having these problems right now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 (edited) QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 03:42 PM) Jumping in late here, and while his value is not through the roof, MacDougal still has value, and could be a key piece as a throw in a deal. Too many underestimate the value of pitchers with MacDougals stuff. Every team in the league would be willing to take a chance on him. Look at Aardsma, he was as bad, if not worse than MacDougal last year and we did get two borderline decent prospects for him. While we didn't get much for Aardsma, we still got more for him than what we did for Iguchi last year. With the way some people act, you'd think people with MacDougal's stuff grows on trees. Like Dick Allen said, if he has good stuff but can't control it, it doesn't matter. See also: David Aardsma I do think MacDougal has a small amount of value though. Very small. Edited July 1, 2008 by lostfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 02:57 PM) They got crap for Aardsma, and MacDougal stinking AAA up would mean they would even less for him. Why would someone want to give up anything of value for a guy doing what he is doing in AAA in order to see if he can help them win in the major leagues right now? If anyone offered KW anything of value for MacDougal, he would be gone by now.. Don't forget, he also is signed through next season for a couple million a year I believe, far more money than Aardsma was getting. And look what Aardsma has done. A 2.92 ERA for Boston in 37 innings. So why would they just dump him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 02:59 PM) Like Dick Allen said, if he has good stuff but can't control it, it doesn't matter. See also: David Aardsma Yeah, see him. He's not doing too badly right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 (edited) QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 04:00 PM) Yeah, see him. He's not doing too badly right now. David Aardsma with the Sox. edit: no need to clarify which Sox, lol Edited July 1, 2008 by lostfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 03:57 PM) Have you guys not been watching the crap that teams are picking up in terms of relief arms over the last several years? They'll take anyone who's ever done anything who could possibly do something again. We signed ESTEBAN LOAIZA for the love of god! And Dick, why would we bring him up to the big league team if he's not corrected his problems yet? Simply because he has been a disaster for a year now doesn't mean he won't ever become something again. And while he is making $2 million this season, it's worth more to the club to hold onto him and hope he figures things out again than to DFA him. No one is claiming he's going to be traded for a top prospect; however, he certainly has some value to a team that thinks a change of scenery might serve him well. We all know he would be a guy the Sox would be looking into if he was in another organization having these problems right now... The point I am making is not only is he making $2 million this year, he is making $2 million next year as well. He stunk last year, wasn't good at the major league level this year, and has been horrid in Charlotte. No team is going to give you anything of value for him now. Loaisa was signed to a minimum pro-rated contract. No one would have picked him up if it meant paying him what is left on MacDougal's contract, let alone give up anything of even slight value for that honor. MacDougal has no value. Maybe he will in the future if he can get things straightened out, but to say he has some now is crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 04:00 PM) Yeah, see him. He's not doing too badly right now. If Aardsma had MacDougal's contract last winter, Boston wouldn't have traded for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 01:08 PM) If Aardsma had MacDougal's contract last winter, Boston wouldn't have traded for him. Because Boston hates throwing around $4 million dollars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 03:08 PM) If Aardsma had MacDougal's contract last winter, Boston wouldn't have traded for him. Yeah, I just think you're way off-base here in claiming that Mac's contract is some albatross or something. Certainly it's not optimal to pay a minor league pitcher $2 million per year, but there have been far worse atrocities committed upon payrolls. The difference between $2 million and say, $400k is not as much as you are claiming for a big league team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 01:26 PM) The difference between $2 million and say, $400k is not as much as you are claiming for a big league team. Florida excluded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 02:57 PM) We all know he would be a guy the Sox would be looking into if he was in another organization having these problems right now... I agree with the general point you are trying to make that MacDougal has a scrap of value and the Sox could very easily "cash" in on that if they really wanted to. Probably a dude who's an organizational player, but they could get something for him regardless. However, the above quote I'll disagree with, especially because the pen is as good as it is. If it were struggling and the Sox were contending, perhaps I'd believe it, but not right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 03:39 PM) Florida excluded. No, it's not like they can't afford it....they get $60-some million in revenue sharing before they sell one ticket or beer (although they don't sell many). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 03:40 PM) I agree with the general point you are trying to make that MacDougal has a scrap of value and the Sox could very easily "cash" in on that if they really wanted to. Probably a dude who's an organizational player, but they could get something for him regardless. However, the above quote I'll disagree with, especially because the pen is as good as it is. If it were struggling and the Sox were contending, perhaps I'd believe it, but not right now. Well, I meant as a general rule, not at this very moment. And who knows, I was still pretty shocked they signed Loaiza again. After that, how could anyone make the claim that we aren't still looking at the scrap heap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 04:40 PM) No, it's not like they can't afford it....they get $60-some million in revenue sharing before they sell one ticket or beer (although they don't sell many). This is bordering on another topic entirely, but I hate when small-market teams don't spend their revenue-sharing money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 03:43 PM) This is bordering on another topic entirely, but I hate when small-market teams don't spend their revenue-sharing money. This thread long-ago left the original topic, why stop now? Honestly, there should be at least a salary floor if there is not going to be a salary cap... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 04:44 PM) This thread long-ago left the original topic, why stop now? Honestly, there should be at least a salary floor if there is not going to be a salary cap... I agree. I mean I hate the uncontrollable big-market spending as much as anybody else (although the Yankees have toned it down a bit lately when they realized it wasn't working) but really, if the big-revenue teams give cash to teams like the Marlins, Rays, Twins, etc. and some of those teams don't spend that money on salary, they have no right to complain. But they still do. Or you could just be like the Twins, and be better than everybody else at everything involving roster management so you don't need to spend that much money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 (edited) QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 04:26 PM) Yeah, I just think you're way off-base here in claiming that Mac's contract is some albatross or something. Certainly it's not optimal to pay a minor league pitcher $2 million per year, but there have been far worse atrocities committed upon payrolls. The difference between $2 million and say, $400k is not as much as you are claiming for a big league team. Its a huge albatross. The guy can't prove he can pitch effectively in AAA, has $1 million left to be paid this year, $2.65 million guaranteed next year with a $350k buyout. So you owe him $4 million right now. Approximately the same amount KW was able to sign Ramirez for 4 seasons. Why would a team give up anything of value and assume that contract taking into account his struggles this year and last and the huge injury risk he will always be? KW barely paid his ENTIRE bullpen $4 million when he was defending a world title. Edited July 1, 2008 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 04:42 PM) Well, I meant as a general rule, not at this very moment. And who knows, I was still pretty shocked they signed Loaiza again. After that, how could anyone make the claim that we aren't still looking at the scrap heap? This is true, but I have to imagine that they are hoping for Loaiza to just eat some innings during August and as a long man out of the bullpen, performance be damned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 04:44 PM) This thread long-ago left the original topic, why stop now? Honestly, there should be at least a salary floor if there is not going to be a salary cap... The union doesn't want a salary floor because they believe that would be a precursor to a salary cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 05:08 PM) Its a huge albatross. The guy can't prove he can pitch effectively in AAA, has $1 million left to be paid this year, $2.65 million guaranteed next year with a $350k buyout. So you owe him $4 million right now. Approximately the same amount KW was able to sign Ramirez for 4 seasons. Why would a team give up anything of value and assume that contract taking into account his struggles this year and last and the huge injury risk he will always be? KW barely paid his ENTIRE bullpen $4 million when he was defending a world title. Seriously Dick, you're being a drama queen here. That contract is not a huge albatross. That contract makes up less than 2% of the team's 08' payroll. As I said earlier, it certainly is not ideal or optimal, but considering where some of our other payroll is going to this year, I don't think it is going to in any way seriously handicap us. I mean, come on Dick, $2 million a year is a really negligible number by baseball standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 (edited) QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 11:27 PM) Seriously Dick, you're being a drama queen here. That contract is not a huge albatross. That contract makes up less than 2% of the team's 08' payroll. As I said earlier, it certainly is not ideal or optimal, but considering where some of our other payroll is going to this year, I don't think it is going to in any way seriously handicap us. I mean, come on Dick, $2 million a year is a really negligible number by baseball standards. Its $3 million next year for a middle reliever who chances are will be in AAA. He'll be out of options, so I guess chances are he'll be in AAA or watching television. Up until Linebrink and Dotel, KW didn't pay $3 million to a reliever. MacDougal is nowhere near that class. I didn't say it was an albatross to the White Sox BTW, although I'm quite positive if some GM called KW and said he would assume the entire contract, KW would do cartwheels. I said it was a huge albatross in trying to move him. Its just another reason besides his performance why he has no value. Edited July 2, 2008 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.