Konerko BAD - Fire GOOD

[shipps]

For the record I just wanna say that Iam not saying the Sox should trade Konerko.But this mentality going around this team of totally dismissing bad performance because what they did two and three years ago drives me crazy.There should be some type of consequence for not doing your job,maybe you should sit for a game or a week.Put the players in that are going to get it done that day and stop nurturing their fragile egos.

[Pants Rowland]

Ok, but he's NOT Juan Uribe. Uribe hits in the low 200s and has a mid 200s OBP, which is a significantly worse clip. That's a much worse player in my opinion. Paul's a very streaky player on the very low end of what we can expect production wise from him over a half of a season.

 

Also, consider that he's a career .291 hitter in July, .297 in August and .305 in September. Granted, he's never dealt with injuries like this before, but typically as the weather heats up so does Paul. Like I said, I'd give him until July 25th to straighten it out and then bench him then.

 

Per weather.com, This weekend's highs/lows forecast for Arlington, TX are...

 

Fri - 98/78

Sat - 102/76

Sun - 95/75

 

Hope that is hot enough to jump start his slow, aging, injured body.

[NorthSideSox72]

For the record I just wanna say that Iam not saying the Sox should trade Konerko.But this mentality going around this team of totally dismissing bad performance because what they did two and three years ago drives me crazy.There should be some type of consequence for not doing your job,maybe you should sit for a game or a week.Put the players in that are going to get it done that day and stop nurturing their fragile egos.

And for the record, I don't think anyone is saying that players should be kept in because of what they did "two or three years ago". When I say look at his career, I mean that its a good indicator that from now until the end of the season, there's a good chance that PK will hit very well. Therefore, he is the best option.

 

I really don't think anyone is saying keep him in there as some sort of reward or something.

 

[maggsmaggs]

This thread is pretty hilarious. A guy who is a HUGE 2nd half hitter in his career, who is just coming off rehab, and was hampered by an injury and the first half... and you want to get rid of him NOW?

What do we have to be positive about with Konerko? He hit AAA pitching? He's got an old body and he is going to deal with stiffness, soreness, nagging injuries and such for the rest of his career. No body is baseball is ever 100% healthy and guys like Konerko are especially prone to nagging little injuries because he is getting old and in just not athletic. Who cares what he has done in his career? He proved in April he was bad. Sorry this isn't the Konerko of the past, this is him now and he just doesn't have it. It would be one thing if he had solid bat speed and was just not right timing, but he has no bat speed at all and that doesn't just change in an instant. We are a better team offensively and defensively with current-Konerko out of the lineup.

[NorthSideSox72]

What do we have to be positive about with Konerko? He hit AAA pitching? He's got an old body and he is going to deal with stiffness, soreness, nagging injuries and such for the rest of his career. No body is baseball is ever 100% healthy and guys like Konerko are especially prone to nagging little injuries because he is getting old and in just not athletic. Who cares what he has done in his career? He proved in April he was bad. Sorry this isn't the Konerko of the past, this is him now and he just doesn't have it. It would be one thing if he had solid bat speed and was just not right timing, but he has no bat speed at all and that doesn't just change in an instant. We are a better team offensively and defensively with current-Konerko out of the lineup.

Now this is a more interesting argument - you think he has lost bat speed and timing. That may be true, though I don't feel that's the case. I think he's just fully out of sync right now, with no rhythm or feel with the bat (or with the glove, for that matter). I think he'll snap out of that.

 

But to say "He proved in April he was bad" is kind of ridiculous. One month? From a guy who more often than not starts cold, AND was injured? I think if you re-tool that quickly with known commodity players, you end up screwing yourself in the end.

 

[Greg Hibbard]

For the record I just wanna say that Iam not saying the Sox should trade Konerko.But this mentality going around this team of totally dismissing bad performance because what they did two and three years ago drives me crazy.There should be some type of consequence for not doing your job,maybe you should sit for a game or a week.Put the players in that are going to get it done that day and stop nurturing their fragile egos.

 

This guy just sat for 4 weeks. After a reasonable sample size of games after a long layoff (not 3), we can probably get a sense of whether or not this is rust or if he just doesn't have it right now. Probably after 10-12 games.

 

Btw, this is not based on what he did 2-3 years ago. This is base on what this guy has done nearly every year over the last 8 years of his major league career. Even last year's "disappointing" .259 campaign was still a relatively productive season.

[shipps]

Btw, this is not based on what he did 2-3 years ago. This is base on what this guy has done nearly every year over the last 8 years of his major league career. Even last year's "disappointing" .259 campaign was still a relatively productive season.

Disappointing shouldnt be in quotes because by his standards it WAS disappointing.Baseball is a patient sport that gives you many opportunities to get back on track so it stands out big time when you cant get your s*** together in a matter of a year and a half.Ask Richie Sexon.

[Greg Hibbard]

Disappointing shouldnt be in quotes because by his standards it WAS disappointing.Baseball is a patient sport that gives you many opportunities to get back on track so it stands out big time when you cant get your s*** together in a matter of a year and a half.Ask Richie Sexon.

 

 

Konerko's OPS last year was .841

 

His OPS in 2000 - which many would categorize as a "good" season in which he hit .280 - was .844.

His OPS in 2001 - another "good" season in which he hit over .290 - was .856

in 2002 - he batted .304 with an .857 OPS.

 

Those are very comparable.

 

If we can all agree that OPS is a pretty good measure of offensive production, last season the only difference was his average took somewhat of a hit compared to those other "good" seasons while his power numbers were up.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Greg Hibbard

[shipps]

Konerko's OPS last year was .841

 

His OPS in 2000 - which many would categorize as a "good" season in which he hit .280 - was .844.

His OPS in 2001 - another "good" season in which he hit over .290 - was .856

in 2002 - he batted .304 with an .857 OPS.

 

Those are very comparable.

 

If we can all agree that OPS is a pretty good measure of offensive production, last season the only difference was his average took somewhat of a hit compared to those other "good" seasons while his power numbers were up.

Thats all fine and dandy but those stats dont indicate how many times you and I both yelled "f***ing Konerko!Cant come through again!",for the past year and a half.And you know its true.

[Chisoxfn]

Would anyone here trade Konerko for Andruw Jones? I think I would. In fact, I think the Dodgers would too. Sox would be getting rid of a long-term contract and would basically get Jones services for this year and next year (18M or so on his contract next year).

 

Defensively the team improves (Jones at CF and Swisher at 1B is a big upgrade over Swisher in CF and Paulie at 1B). Sox also gain some speed in the lineup but do lose a leader (Jones has had some attitude issues). Paulie is also more likely to rebound than Jones, who has never been a tremendous average hitter.

 

The only thing that could potentially prevent this from making sense from the Dodgers perspective is if they don't think Loney can play the OF (but Loney/Ethier/Kemp is a very solid outfield).

 

Note: By all means I'm not saying there is any need to write off Konerko or consider his career done. He's not what I'd consider "old" (for baseball standards) plus there is a legitimate injury which is the likely cause of his struggles this season. We do know he'll never be a 1st to 3rd guy or a .330 hitter, but I won't be surprised if he has at least another 2 30HR 100 RBI seasons in his career.

[Kyyle23]

Isnt Andruw Jones out with an injury to his knee?

[Chisoxfn]

Isnt Andruw Jones out with an injury to his knee?

Unless he got hurt in the last day or two, no. He just came off the DL.

[Greg Hibbard]

Thats all fine and dandy but those stats dont indicate how many times you and I both yelled "f***ing Konerko!Cant come through again!",for the past year and a half.And you know its true.

 

First of all, I'll be the first to say Konerko has been very frustrating this season, which is why I did a lot of analysis to see if I thought he's worth keeping because my knee jerk reaction was also to make a change. However, last season - he was about 10th or 11th on the list of things I was most frustrated by. In fact, I can't say I was particularly bothered by his production last season, even though I know it took somewhat of a hit. I was much more focused on the lack of an overall direction for this organization in general.

 

In 2007, his .841 OPS puts him 62nd out of 216 MLB hitters with 400 or more plate appearances. That puts him basically in the top 25% of all hitters - in what we're considering a "down" year. And the reason why we're considering it a "down year" is because the previous 2 seasons, Konerko's OPS was in the top 27 of all of baseball both seasons (again, min 400 plate appearances) - in the top 12% of all hitters. In 2004 he was 33rd in OPS with the same constraints - again in the top 15 percentile. That's a pretty f***ing awesome four year run.

 

Over the four year period 2004-2007, you'd be hardpressed to find a more productive hitter. Certainly Pujols and ARod, possibly Bonds...but who else? I can think of maybe 4 or 5 hitters who had similar or better cumulative stats in terms of OPS, total homers and RBI.

 

And yet 65 games in, playing almost all the games through a hand injury, people want to CUT or TRADE this guy?

 

Unbelievable.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Greg Hibbard

[Whitewashed in '05]

KW is not the type to trade a player at his lowest value. Rarely will you see him eat anyones contract or trade them for nothing. I hope Paulie snaps of his season long funk because we will need him in the second half.

[shipps]

In 2007, his .841 OPS puts him 62nd out of 216 MLB hitters with 400 or more plate appearances. That puts him basically in the top 25% of all hitters - in what we're considering a "down" year. And the reason why we're considering it a "down year" is because the previous 2 seasons, Konerko's OPS was in the top 27 of all of baseball both seasons (again, min 400 plate appearances) - in the top 12% of all hitters. In 2004 he was 33rd in OPS with the same constraints - again in the top 15 percentile. That's a pretty f***ing awesome four year run.

 

Over the four year period 2004-2007, you'd be hardpressed to find a more productive hitter. Certainly Pujols and ARod, possibly Bonds...but who else? I can think of maybe 4 or 5 hitters who had similar or better cumulative stats in terms of OPS, total homers and RBI.

Iam strictly talking about 07' to 08'.First off its not exactly the top 25% of all hitters in OPS it would be closer to the top 35 to 40%.Secondly you just cant take Konerko's OPS numbers as seriously because he is even worse than a station to station guy,he is not productive when he gets on base and he clogs them up more than anything.You might as well throw OPS out the window with him IMO.

[Greg Hibbard]

Iam strictly talking about 07' to 08'.First off its not exactly the top 25% of all hitters in OPS it would be closer to the top 35 to 40%.Secondly you just cant take Konerko's OPS numbers as seriously because he is even worse than a station to station guy,he is not productive when he gets on base and he clogs them up more than anything.You might as well throw OPS out the window with him IMO.

 

 

so what you're basically saying is it's Paul's fault the hitters behind him don't drive him in. Ok.

 

Paul is no more a liability on the basepaths than any numbers of slow fatasses in the league such as Jason Giambi or anyone else.

[shipps]

so what you're basically saying is it's Paul's fault the hitters behind him don't drive him in. Ok.

 

Paul is no more a liability on the basepaths than any numbers of slow fatasses in the league such as Jason Giambi or anyone else.

PK is the slowest individual in baseball.I cant think of anyone even close to him.EDIT:I dont know how you got me completely bashing PK but its your fault Hibbard.

Edited July 11, 2008 by shipps

[Wanne]

Would anyone here trade Konerko for Andruw Jones? I think I would. In fact, I think the Dodgers would too. Sox would be getting rid of a long-term contract and would basically get Jones services for this year and next year (18M or so on his contract next year).

 

Defensively the team improves (Jones at CF and Swisher at 1B is a big upgrade over Swisher in CF and Paulie at 1B). Sox also gain some speed in the lineup but do lose a leader (Jones has had some attitude issues). Paulie is also more likely to rebound than Jones, who has never been a tremendous average hitter.

 

The only thing that could potentially prevent this from making sense from the Dodgers perspective is if they don't think Loney can play the OF (but Loney/Ethier/Kemp is a very solid outfield).

 

Note: By all means I'm not saying there is any need to write off Konerko or consider his career done. He's not what I'd consider "old" (for baseball standards) plus there is a legitimate injury which is the likely cause of his struggles this season. We do know he'll never be a 1st to 3rd guy or a .330 hitter, but I won't be surprised if he has at least another 2 30HR 100 RBI seasons in his career.

 

In. A. Heartbeat. I could see some sort of trade going down with the Dodgers...which would include Uribe. Getting Kemp back somehow would be great...but I'd just look at it as addition by subtraction.

[scenario]

PK is the slowest individual in baseball.I cant think of anyone even close to him.

 

Bengie Molina.

 

Molina make Paulie look like Jerry Owens.

[Chisoxfn]

PK is the slowest individual in baseball.I cant think of anyone even close to him.EDIT:I dont know how you got me completely bashing PK but its your fault Hibbard.

Bengie Molina is slower and I still think Thome is pretty darn slow.

[Greg Hibbard]

PK is the slowest individual in baseball.I cant think of anyone even close to him.EDIT:I dont know how you got me completely bashing PK but its your fault Hibbard.

 

 

Ok but honestly how does this impact his ability to run from first to second on a single to right? Is he being thrown out by the right fielder? No, obviously not.

 

Plenty of guys (Matt Stairs, Frank Thomas, I could name about 50 others) are station to station on the basepaths - but we don't reduce the value of their offensive statistics because they're slow. Why the double standard? Konerko isn't THAT much slower.

 

How many times has he been thrown out at home this season from second on a single?

 

Let's take this box score for example, the second game of the season. Konerko is 0 for 1 with 3 BBs. This is honestly just the first game I clicked on, I'll look at more right now.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playbyplay?gameId=280402105

 

In the second inning, any other station to station ballplayer (like the aforementioned examples) would've played out in an identical fashion. Obviously anyone who goes from first to third might have scored, but that's not Paul's game nor the players like Paul (who nobody discriminates against their OPS for their speed).

 

In the 4th, Konerko walks with 2 outs and then JD grounds out.

In the 8th, Konerko walks with 2 outs to load the bases and then JD strikes out.

 

[Frankensteiner]

I don't think there's really a right or a wrong position to take in this argument. On the one hand, Konerko is a veteran hitter with a long history of production so it's perfectly fine to expect him to produce at some point. On the other hand, Paulie is an old 32 going on 41 with an appearant decline in some of his skills. When you combine this year's abysmal production with last year's declining production, it's not out of place to conclude that he could be done as an All-Star level player.

 

I have no idea if he has indeed lost bat speed but it does seem like he has trouble turning on fastballs this season, and really that has been his thing throughout his career. The question is whether or not this is simply a result of mental slump/poor approach/injury combo or if it's a more serious decline in skill?

 

All I need to do is look at Richie Sexson and see a similar player's decline at a similar age. Sexson went from a .900 OPS to around an .850 OPS to a .690 OPS last year. And he's continued to suck this season.

 

Konerko goes from .932 to .841 to .679. It's pretty bad, regardless of any excuses. I don't think there's any chance of us trading Konerko, but it's possible his value will continue going down. At this point, some team might still take a chance on him. The longer he sucks though, there's going to be less and less interest. And the consequence of him sucking isn't only that we're stuck with him, but we're going to be stuck actually PLAYING him.

[greg775]

Doesn't that just mean he walks a lot? For that salary I want him to be an RBI machine.

 

I want to understand why Swisher gets a free pass from so many and Paulie the wrath?

Swisher looked like an ant in center field last night.

He's not a great defender and he's made as many frustrating outs as Paulie and also is on the wrong side of even .250.

Oh but he walks a lot.

So Paulie has sucked big time. We're still in first place and he is not finished yet.

Andruw Jones??? My god. Just say no to that idea.

Keep Paulie and tell him to get his head out of his ass and start hitting like Paulie.

[BigSqwert]

Swisher looked like an ant in center field last night.

That's why he should be playing first.

[Greg Hibbard]

looking at the play by play for each result of Konerko's first eleven walks of the season, there's absolutely no impact that his speed has on the result. In most cases, the player behind him made the third out of the inning (usually JD). He only scored 1 time out of the first eleven, but in all cases this wasn't the result of him being slow.

 

If anything I challenge you to find an instance where Konerko walked and hindered the team somehow due to his speed.