The Democrat Thread

[NorthSideSox72]

If he had resigned and said no, instead of keeping all his blow-ups behind the scenes...it would have been almost impossible for the idiots-in-chief to go forwards.

I wish that were true, but it really isn't. That war was going to happen, no matter what Powell did.

 

[Balta1701]

I wish that were true, but it really isn't. That war was going to happen, no matter what Powell did.

You may be right...but he didn't have to go along with it.

 

As far as I can tell, the biggest error he made was he put his loyalty to the President above his loyalty to the country. That is the thing I can't excuse and never will.

[NorthSideSox72]

You may be right...but he didn't have to go along with it.

 

As far as I can tell, the biggest error he made was he put his loyalty to the President above his loyalty to the country. That is the thing I can't excuse and never will.

I just don't think he did that. Quite the opposite, actually. If he put his loyalty to Bush first, he wouldn't have taken the stances he did, and then wouldn't have been slowly pushed aside.

 

[lostfan]

None of this changes the basic fact that Powell was right and everybody else was wrong, about pretty much everything. 100 years from now when kids are in class talking about the turn of the 21st century, I hope that's how it's written.

Edited July 25, 2008 by lostfan

[bmags]

considerable questions would've been raised if Colin Powell resigned suddenly during the run-up to the war, to say the least.

[HuskyCaucasian]

The Myth of a Toss-Up Election

A Commentary By Alan Abramowitz, Thomas E. Mann, and Larry J. Sabato

 

I wont post the article due to it's length. But here is the key paragraph:

While no election outcome is guaranteed and McCain's prospects could improve over the next three and a half months, virtually all of the evidence that we have reviewed--historical patterns, structural features of this election cycle, and national and state polls conducted over the last several months--point to a comfortable Obama/Democratic party victory in November.

[NorthSideSox72]

The Myth of a Toss-Up Election

A Commentary By Alan Abramowitz, Thomas E. Mann, and Larry J. Sabato

 

I wont post the article due to it's length. But here is the key paragraph:

There is no such thing as a comfortable lead in a Presidential election, in July. I'm sorry, but, that's ridiculous, unless McCain goes out and strangles some kittens or something.

 

 

[HuskyCaucasian]

There is no such thing as a comfortable lead in a Presidential election, in July. I'm sorry, but, that's ridiculous, unless McCain goes out and strangles some kittens or something.

or the press finally figures out he doenst know squat about foreign policy.

[NorthSideSox72]

or the press finally figures out he doenst know squat about foreign policy.

I'd say he "knows" more than Obama does, actually. I don't like McCain's policy direction, but, in terms of knowledge, Obama doesn't have much room to talk.

 

[lostfan]

I'd say he "knows" more than Obama does, actually. I don't like McCain's policy direction, but, in terms of knowledge, Obama doesn't have much room to talk.

I don't want to sound like a pro-Obama shill, but he knows a lot more about foreign policy than people give him credit for. But that McCain is a wealth of foreign policy wisdom compared to Obama's n00bishness has been decided for us already.

[NorthSideSox72]

I don't want to sound like a pro-Obama shill, but he knows a lot more about foreign policy than people give him credit for. But that McCain is a wealth of foreign policy wisdom compared to Obama's n00bishness has been decided for us already.

Neither are what I'd call experts. I was just responding to this idea that McCain knows nothing, and that somehow that same problem won't effect Obama.

 

This is one of the reasons why I think Obama will likely pick Richardson for VP.

 

[lostfan]

Neither are what I'd call experts. I was just responding to this idea that McCain knows nothing, and that somehow that same problem won't effect Obama.

 

This is one of the reasons why I think Obama will likely pick Richardson for VP.

No, not experts. But Obama gets painted as if he's completely clueless about the world. This is the primary logic behind McCain's attacks, too. McCain goes out of his way to say Obama is naive, but he doesn't bother to explain why his plan is right, or better, or why it'd work where Obama's will fail. To cite a specific example that McCain has beat into the ground, he says things like "he will talk to tyrants in Tehran, Havana, and Pyongyang." Ok, and? What's to be lost in him doing it (Obama made his case why he thinks he should), and what are YOU going to do?

[Balta1701]

I think this right here is a classic example of Republican politics in action. In 2003-2004, the FDA was looking in to setting up a computerized food tracking system that would allow for much easier control of the food supply, since it would be able to track food products as they're imported, exported, or shipped around the country. So, if you had a problem in one spot, say a salmonella outbreak, you'd have a much better chance of tracing the origin of it because you'd have very detailed records stored in an easy and searchable form. This was thought of as part of the anti-terror campaign, since hitting the food supply with a bio weapon is a potential way to hurt a lot of people in a large area of the country.

 

The costs of developing this system of course would be in part taken by the food industry, since at some level they'd have to spend additional funds to add in the tracking capabilities and electronic documents at each step. So, they dumped a couple million dollars in lobbyist fees on Congress, and viola, the plan went away.

 

Then of course...2007 and 2008 roll around, and there starts to be a bunch of salmonella outbreaks, in no small part because the government has massively cut back on the amount of inspectors working on protecting the food supply. Suddenly the FDA tries to swing in to action, but really has no way of figuring out what exactly the common threads are in the cases, because the documents are all kept in paper, they're not complete, and there's no quick or easy way to search them. So a warning gets put out on random foods, like tomatoes, cilantro, etc. The food industry loses hundreds of millions of dollars, months go by while people still get sick, and eventually they find one contaminated pepper.

 

The hundreds of millions of dollars lost over the couple months of course...are far less than the cost would have been to set up the electronic tracking system.

 

So sure, the industry flushed millions of dollars down the toilet and a lot of people got sick. At least they don't have big government on their backs.

[kapkomet]

I think this right here is a classic example of Republican politics in action. In 2003-2004, the FDA was looking in to setting up a computerized food tracking system that would allow for much easier control of the food supply, since it would be able to track food products as they're imported, exported, or shipped around the country. So, if you had a problem in one spot, say a salmonella outbreak, you'd have a much better chance of tracing the origin of it because you'd have very detailed records stored in an easy and searchable form. This was thought of as part of the anti-terror campaign, since hitting the food supply with a bio weapon is a potential way to hurt a lot of people in a large area of the country.

 

The costs of developing this system of course would be in part taken by the food industry, since at some level they'd have to spend additional funds to add in the tracking capabilities and electronic documents at each step. So, they dumped a couple million dollars in lobbyist fees on Congress, and viola, the plan went away.

 

Then of course...2007 and 2008 roll around, and there starts to be a bunch of salmonella outbreaks, in no small part because the government has massively cut back on the amount of inspectors working on protecting the food supply. Suddenly the FDA tries to swing in to action, but really has no way of figuring out what exactly the common threads are in the cases, because the documents are all kept in paper, they're not complete, and there's no quick or easy way to search them. So a warning gets put out on random foods, like tomatoes, cilantro, etc. The food industry loses hundreds of millions of dollars, months go by while people still get sick, and eventually they find one contaminated pepper.

 

The hundreds of millions of dollars lost over the couple months of course...are far less than the cost would have been to set up the electronic tracking system.

 

So sure, the industry flushed millions of dollars down the toilet and a lot of people got sick. At least they don't have big government on their backs.

 

I think it's pure bulls*** to blame this on Republicans. It's all of them, Balta (I know the article said "Bush administration" but come the hell on). Just pick your topic du'jour.

[Balta1701]

I think it's pure bulls*** to blame this on Republicans. It's all of them, Balta (I know the article said "Bush administration" but come the hell on). Just pick your topic du'jour.

I think it's a great example of how the limited government philosophy dramatically failed and cost business hundreds of millions of dollars.

[Balta1701]

World writes open letter to McCain.

 

[kapkomet]

I think it's a great example of how the limited government philosophy dramatically failed and cost business hundreds of millions of dollars.

Fine. The market works. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. I don't think people getting sick is a good thing, but that's a risk of the process.

 

[Balta1701]

Fine. The market works. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. I don't think people getting sick is a good thing, but that's a risk of the process.

And my point? The market works better, and cheaper, when it's properly regulated.

[kapkomet]

And my point? The market works better, and cheaper, when it's properly regulated.

I've never disagreed with that - you can't have a PURE free market.

 

On the other hand, it's plain distasteful (har har) to blame this whole thing on "Republicans" either.

 

[Balta1701]

I've never disagreed with that - you can't have a PURE free market.

 

On the other hand, it's plain distasteful (har har) to blame this whole thing on "Republicans" either.

But you know what? I think that's a perfect example of the "Small government" philosophy and a perfect example of why it fails. Because assuming that limited government and free markets are always the perfect answer to everything gets you messes like this one.

[HuskyCaucasian]

World writes open letter to McCain.

 

I saw that earlier. Pretty fun. People can call me a fan boy all they want, but I can appreciate good natured humor about my guy.

[kapkomet]

But you know what? I think that's a perfect example of the "Small government" philosophy and a perfect example of why it fails. Because assuming that limited government and free markets are always the perfect answer to everything gets you messes like this one.

There's a happy medium. Name me one big government program that works like it should. The intermediary stuff... sure, there have to be some safety nets... but the private sector does it better then government time and time again. You're grasping at straws to make this the "hill to die on" example of why government should do everything for us, and that's just not the case.

 

[Balta1701]

There's a happy medium. Name me one big government program that works like it should.

Social Security.

 

Anyway...this doesn't prove the government should be running everything. But if I were to campaign on the point that we'd gone well too far in stripping the government and trying to drown it in the streets of new orleans a bathtub as Grover Norquist suggested and as GW Bush has casually tried to do...here's an example of how we've swung way too far and it's costing us a lot. There's many others. This one's just pretty damn obvious and blatant.

[bmags]

Social Security.

 

exactly what I was going to say.

[kapkomet]

exactly what I was going to say.

And I don't think it works like it was intended, it's become a big boondoggle.