The Democrat Thread

[lostfan]

It comes from Clinton scaling back military spending from Reagan/ Bush, too, right?

Sort of. Which I don't really get because then Congress was controlled by the GOP and they seemed to be fine with it then on the "small government" principle.

 

I think the reason it's so stereotyped is John Kerry (our troops are raping in the middle of the night), John Murtha (our troops kill people for no reason), Harry Reid (the war is lost). I think that's enough.

 

That's really "supporting the troops".

 

To make this clear, Obama NEVER said these things - but his party did.

Yeah, good point.

[kapkomet]

In this case, the specific discussion topic is why exactly the "Democrats are weak on the military" meme is so solid. The point you made was that you feel their statements are blatant disrespect of the military. Therefore, I contend if we're doing a comparison of statements, having Republicans in 1993 saying ""It's Vietnam all over again" (Fritz Hollings) is 100% germane to the discussion. Either it's on you to explain to me why the statements by the Democrats (I may grant you Murtha given how the investigation turned out) are significantly worse than those of the Republicans under similar circumstances, or I have defeated your point and it's time to look for another reason why the idea has taken hold.

 

How a discussion does not work is...you prevent an opinion with evidence backing it, you're presented with counter-evidence from the other side, you throw up your hands and say "I'm sick of it". It really doesn't get us anywhere and it doesn't provide me with any edification about the issue.

I'll take your side. How about Bosnia in 1998? How about a few lobbed missles at Iraq during the same time? Wag the Dog...

 

You're right. But, I think the stakes are a lot different.

 

 

[lostfan]

President Obama Ordered the Killing of Three Black Muslim Kids

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/sit...5110.guest.html

 

rofl, obviously he is being sarcastic, but come on now.

[Balta1701]

The evil, obsessed with spying on the Republicans DHS which has spent all their time finding ways to disrupt the right wing also prepared a similar report on left wing protesters.

 

Stealing a thought from Steve Benen:

Now, given this, are liberal media figures, pundits, bloggers, and talk-show hosts likely to throw a complete fit? It seems unlikely, for one simple reason: I don't think DHS is referring to liberal media figures, pundits, bloggers, and talk-show hosts.

 

It's what struck me as so strange yesterday. When DHS raised concerns about radical right-wing extremists who might commit acts of violence, Limbaugh, Hannity, Dobbs, Malkin, and others immediately thought, "Wait, maybe they're talking about us!"

 

With DHS also concerned about "left-wing extremists," it seems mainstream liberals aren't especially concerned about being lumped in with a violent fringe.

[Balta1701]

The NYT is running tomorrow a story saying that one of the targets of the illegal wiretapping scheme George Bush implemented was an unnamed member of Congress who had the misfortune to travel to the Middle East on official business.

[Rex Kickass]

I'll take your side. How about Bosnia in 1998? How about a few lobbed missles at Iraq during the same time? Wag the Dog...

 

You're right. But, I think the stakes are a lot different.

 

Actually during the Clinton administration, the US bombed Iraqi targets on an average of once every five days.

[lostfan]

The evil, obsessed with spying on the Republicans DHS which has spent all their time finding ways to disrupt the right wing also prepared a similar report on left wing protesters.

 

Stealing a thought from Steve Benen:

DHS apologized to vets for that report. I don't even know why. Anyone who actually reads it knows what it really says, and it's not the first nor will it be the last time vets are mentioned in a report about right-wing extremism. It's Analysis 101.

[Chet Lemon]

I think the reason it's so stereotyped is John Kerry (our troops are raping in the middle of the night), John Murtha (our troops kill people for no reason), Harry Reid (the war is lost). I think that's enough.

 

That's really "supporting the troops".

 

To make this clear, Obama NEVER said these things - but his party did.

 

At the 2004 RNC, delegates wore purple band-aids to diminish the Purple Heart award earned by Kerry. True, it was meant to diminish only Kerry's service, but the military awards wounded troops Purple Hearts. That is real support.

 

[kapkomet]

At the 2004 RNC, delegates wore purple band-aids to diminish the Purple Heart award earned by Kerry. True, it was meant to diminish only Kerry's service, but the military awards wounded troops Purple Hearts. That is real support.

I know. It's always different, but then again, it wasn't a possible commander in chief lying his ass off about the troops trying to get elected because it was "popular" at the time, either. Perhaps when John Kerry comes up I'll wear a purple band aid on my ass, too. Pucker up!

 

[mr_genius]

President Obama Ordered the Killing of Three Black Muslim Kids

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/sit...5110.guest.html

 

rofl, obviously he is being sarcastic, but come on now.

 

the guy is stealing my material

[Chet Lemon]

I know. It's always different, but then again, it wasn't a possible commander in chief lying his ass off about the troops trying to get elected because it was "popular" at the time, either. Perhaps when John Kerry comes up I'll wear a purple band aid on my ass, too. Pucker up!

 

Again, I understand trashing Kerry, but why tarnish the Purple Heart? Why not go after the military for awarding Kerry? There are two ways it should go down when dealing with a decorated war veteran who you despise:

1. Criticize that person's offensive views/gaffes/speeches/etc.

2. Criticize the military for awarding that person (Kerry) who ostensibly does not deserve a Purple Heart, but a band-aid.

 

[kapkomet]

Again, I understand trashing Kerry, but why tarnish the Purple Heart? Why not go after the military for awarding Kerry? There are two ways it should go down when dealing with a decorated war veteran who you despise:

1. Criticize that person's offensive views/gaffes/speeches/etc.

2. Criticize the military for awarding that person (Kerry) who ostensibly does not deserve a Purple Heart, but a band-aid.

The reason I criticize John Kerry is we had to be told every time he opened his mouth that he was a veteran and a purple heart winner. That's why I tie the two together, and other people did back then as well. If he wouldn't have touted it so much, I don't think anyone would have brought it up the way they did.

 

It is important to tie the two together. It's not anti military nor anti purple heart, but it is against a self proclaimed veteran who wants to disrespect the military when it's convenient for his campaign (at the time).

[Balta1701]

In another example of change we can believe in, the Obama administration today followed a court order requiring that several of the memos the Bush Administration used to justify their torture regime be released. The only things they redacted were the names of the people in the CIA who had done the torture, as far as we can guess. They did say that the people who actually did the torturing will be granted immunity, but notably, they did not say that same thing about the people who ordered it done.

 

A lot of them go through specifically the techniques, like keeping a guy conscious for 11 days, etc., that we were declaring legal. It's somewhat sterile but equally mind-boggling that people actually defended this work.

 

I think an excellent example of how repugnant these memos are can be found in this memo by Stephen Bradbury...where he says, among other things "yes, if people do this to our guys we'd call it torture, but it's fine in this case. And oh, we can't guarantee that a court will agree with this reasoning if anyone ever asks. But don't worry, no one ever will"

 

 

 

That's fairly sick. Yes, you're breaking the law, but don't worry, just keep it secret and you're set.

[Balta1701]

You can't do a comparison more exactly than this.

"You would like to place Zubaydah in a cramped confinement box with an insect. You have informed us that he appears to have a fear of insects. (...) As we understand it, you plan to inform Zubaydah that you are going to place a stinging insect into the box, but you will actually place a harmless insect in the box, such as a caterpillar. If you do so, to ensure you are outside the predicate death requirement, you must inform him that the insects will not have a sting that would produce death or severe pain. If, however, you were to place the insect in the box without informing him that you are doing so, you should not affirmatively lead him to believe that any insect is present which has a sting that could produce severe pain or suffering or even cause his death."

 

OLC memo of August 1, 2002, signed by Jay Bybee.

"'You asked me once,' said O'Brien, 'what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world.'

 

"The door opened again. A guard came in, carrying something made of wire, a box or basket of some kind. He set it down on the further table. Because of the position in which O'Brien was standing. Winston could not see what the thing was.

 

'The worst thing in the world,' said O'Brien, 'varies from individual to individual. It may be burial alive, or death by fire, or by drowning, or by impalement, or fifty other deaths. There are cases where it is some quite trivial thing, not even fatal.'

 

He had moved a little to one side, so that Winston had a better view of the thing on the table. It was an oblong wire cage with a handle on top for carrying it by. Fixed to the front of it was something that looked like a fencing mask, with the concave side outwards. Although it was three or four metres away from him, he could see that the cage was divided lengthways into two compartments, and that there was some kind of creature in each. They were rats.

 

'In your case,' said O'Brien, 'the worst thing in the world happens to be rats.'"

George Orwell, 1984

Stolen from Hilzoy

[kapkomet]

And it is important to note that this technique was never used. Does your liberal blogs say that? Probably not.

 

Oh, it was a "comment" at the end. Surprised, they wouldn't include it in their blog...

 

[lostfan]

f*** Abu Zubaydah though.

[kapkomet]

f*** Abu Zubaydah though.

No, no... he has American rights...

 

I'll say it, and I mean it. f***tards like this have NO rights. You lose your right to "humanity" when you vow to kill thousands of innocent people. Period. You save lives by pouring water over his face or putting a cockroach in with him, I don't give a s***, and neither do most Americans given the choice. He lost his rights and liberty when he decided to mastermind a bunch of asshole zealots to kill a bunch of innocent people.

 

*whiney* oh we're better then that... please.

[lostfan]

No, no... he has American rights...

 

I'll say it, and I mean it. f***tards like this have NO rights. You lose your right to "humanity" when you vow to kill thousands of innocent people. Period. You save lives by pouring water over his face or putting a cockroach in with him, I don't give a s***, and neither do most Americans given the choice. He lost his rights and liberty when he decided to mastermind a bunch of asshole zealots to kill a bunch of innocent people.

 

*whiney* oh we're better then that... please.

You have to prove that he's guilty but I seriously would love to beat the s*** out of him.

[kapkomet]

You have to prove that he's guilty but I seriously would love to beat the s*** out of him.

They had more s*** on this guy then just about anyone they captured, from what I understand. That's what gave them the authorization to do what they did to in him the first place.

 

 

[Balta1701]

I think your guys' defense of this is absolutely sickening, and that's all I have to say about that.

[lostfan]

I think your guys' defense of this is absolutely sickening, and that's all I have to say about that.

I'm not defending anything, I'm just saying I want to beat the s*** out of Abu Zubaydah. Cuz I do. I really do.

[kapkomet]

I think your guys' defense of this is absolutely sickening, and that's all I have to say about that.

Right, because we're better then that. Let's be "nice" to him, and let thousands die. Is that ok in your book?

 

Now, I'm being a propagandist, right? Spreading hate, lies, because we don't know what would have happened, right? We have 3,000 people dead. I don't want any more AMERICANS dead from this. He's alive, somewhere, IIRC, and probably not living too badly compared to what he was. He endured 10 minutes of waterboarding. Yes, it sucks. But when our country is on the line, you bet your ass I side with them for doing it. THREE f***ing people had this done to them. THREE. Again, yes, it sucks. But it had/has to be done - we're not the ones who started this (oh wait, yes we are, we're supposed to be SORRY (thanks, Mr. Obama) for everything we do, I forgot.).

 

If one of our countrymen, say, Timothy McVeigh, were caught, in a matter of minutes something were to happen and we had to find out what it was, I'd say we have to do it. AGAIN, it sucks. But if it saves multiple lives, you do it. Utopia is all fine and dandy when it's robbing from the rich and giving to the poor, but it's not when people's lives are on the line?

 

 

 

[ChiSox_Sonix]

No, no... he has American rights...

 

I'll say it, and I mean it. f***tards like this have NO rights. You lose your right to "humanity" when you vow to kill thousands of innocent people. Period. You save lives by pouring water over his face or putting a cockroach in with him, I don't give a s***, and neither do most Americans given the choice. He lost his rights and liberty when he decided to mastermind a bunch of asshole zealots to kill a bunch of innocent people.

 

*whiney* oh we're better then that... please.

 

 

Couldn't agree more with this post. People like him deserve everything that they get.

[kapkomet]

Couldn't agree more with this post. People like him deserve everything that they get.

I'll make one more point here. I think it's fascinating that this s*** three times in a row now has gotten released when our president goes on a foreign trip and has a speech coinciding about how sorry we are for all of the world's wrongs. What bulls***. The asshole can't go anywhere without telling everyone everywhere about how bad our country is. If it's that bad, just stay over in Europe or Mexico.

[lostfan]

Cmon, you guys complain when liberal posters lurk in the Republican thread... cross-posting is ok but there is a line that should be respected.