southsider2k5 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 06:00 PM) Sending all the illegals back to Mexico is nothing more than a fantasy and I'm really wondering why people still actually talk about it like it's something that can actually be done. Instead we are going to bankrupt our social programs by making them all citizens, and giving them free retirement and social security. That's a pretty nice slap in the face to the generations who have actually followed our laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 06:32 PM) You've opposed any measure that would give them any degree of citizenship on the grounds that it would give the Democrats more voters and then they'd have to have health care. The other options are: 1. Deport em all! 2. Do nothing 3. A system that legalizes them but doesn't give them a path to citizenship. Problem of course is that it makes them an indentured servant of whatever company they work for; they can never improve their conditions because they get deported if they get fired. That's not the only reason (Dem voters) that I oppose it. #3 is the best option - a work program. Why are you so excited to welcome 20,000,000 people to the citizenship of the USA in one fell swoop? I mean, they deserve everything for breaking the law and crossing that border! It's a slap in the face to those who came here the right way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 QUOTE (kapkomet @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 07:29 PM) Did I say that? No but you did trigger a train of thought in my head. The "pay a fine" deal comes from the fact that illegal immigration is a crime and there has to be a penalty associated with it, but at the same time there is no immigration reform possible without doing something about the millions of illegals already here. Ideally, yeah, you'd just boot them out, but that can't happen. Another option is giving them legal status and letting them work here (guest worker program etc.) but then that gets the "DEM DURN MES-I-CANS IS TAKIN MUH JOBS!!!!111" crowd's panties in a bunch so that kind of kills the compromise. I had no issues with the reform package Bush was trying to get passed but it got killed because of simple politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 06:36 PM) No but you did trigger a train of thought in my head. The "pay a fine" deal comes from the fact that illegal immigration is a crime and there has to be a penalty associated with it, but at the same time there is no immigration reform possible without doing something about the millions of illegals already here. Ideally, yeah, you'd just boot them out, but that can't happen. Another option is giving them legal status and letting them work here (guest worker program etc.) but then that gets the "DEM DURN MES-I-CANS IS TAKIN MUH JOBS!!!!111" crowd's panties in a bunch so that kind of kills the compromise. I had no issues with the reform package Bush was trying to get passed but it got killed because of simple politics. The "DEM DURN MES-I-CANS IS TAKIN MUH JOBS!!!!111" crowd can pound sand. They have BETTER opportunities to make themselves better, if they choose to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 07:33 PM) Instead we are going to bankrupt our social programs by making them all citizens, and giving them free retirement and social security. That's a pretty nice slap in the face to the generations who have actually followed our laws. I don't know the exact numbers but a lot of illegals still do pay taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 QUOTE (kapkomet @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 04:35 PM) That's not the only reason (Dem voters) that I oppose it. #3 is the best option - a work program. Why are you so excited to welcome 20,000,000 people to the citizenship of the USA in one fell swoop? I mean, they deserve everything for breaking the law and crossing that border! It's a slap in the face to those who came here the right way. I have no problem with it being a work program, but I have a problem with it being a work program that doesn't eventually offer a path to citizenship. That's the indentured servitude part. "You want to form a union? You want better wages? You don't want your hands falling off? You want the doors to the bathroom unlocked? Screw you, you're fired, back to Mexico with you." You have to give them a path to citizenship so that eventually they earn the way out of that. The weird thing though...you just opposed that. The proposal as discussed last time Bush brought it up would have been to come forwards, register, pay a fine, and if you stay with your employer or stay here legally for long enough, you can then earn citizenship. But you just dismissed the proposal as discussed last time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 QUOTE (kapkomet @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 07:38 PM) The "DEM DURN MES-I-CANS IS TAKIN MUH JOBS!!!!111" crowd can pound sand. They have BETTER opportunities to make themselves better, if they choose to. IMO the current situation is basically legalized slavery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 04:39 PM) IMO the current situation is basically legalized slavery. Except it's not legal, it's turning a blind eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 07:39 PM) I have no problem with it being a work program, but I have a problem with it being a work program that doesn't eventually offer a path to citizenship. That's the indentured servitude part. "You want to form a union? You want better wages? You don't want your hands falling off? You want the doors to the bathroom unlocked? Screw you, you're fired, back to Mexico with you." You have to give them a path to citizenship so that eventually they earn the way out of that. The weird thing though...you just opposed that. The proposal as discussed last time Bush brought it up would have been to come forwards, register, pay a fine, and if you stay with your employer or stay here legally for long enough, you can then earn citizenship. But you just dismissed the proposal as discussed last time. I thought Bush's plan was a fair compromise that was about as close as you can get to taking all of the realities into account. It wasn't even partisan politics that killed it, just people unwilling to compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 07:40 PM) Except it's not legal, it's turning a blind eye. Modern-day slavery is probably a better description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 These people make the choice to do that, don't they? Talk about jumping Kaperbole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Who, the illegals? What's their alternative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 04:43 PM) Who, the illegals? What's their alternative? Mexico is 100% safe these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 06:45 PM) Mexico is 100% safe these days. Yea. Millions have to come here to escape. OK, I get that. But, they make the choice. And I would argue, they make the choice to put up with the s*** that they do there. OH WAIT! I can blame America again! Us friggin druggies! If it weren't for us, Mexico would be alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) The people who employ them (although not in all cases, I'm sure) do so happily because they can pay them s*** wages and get away with it, and occupational safety is not a concern. Don't like it? Tough s***. Go back to Mexico/Guatemala/Honduras/wherever. Edited July 8, 2009 by lostfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 07:40 PM) The people who employ them (although not in all cases, I'm sure) do so happily because they can pay them s*** wages and get away with it, and occupational safety is not a concern. Don't like it? Tough s***. Go back to Mexico/Guatemala/Honduras/wherever. Pretty much. As I said. Worker program. And if they want to get on a list to get here the right way, I don't have a problem with that. I DO have a problem with them just paying a nominal "penalty" and they are BAM citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 06:45 PM) Mexico is 100% safe these days. we can't have a situation where anyone can come to the US because their country is dangerous. most of the world population lives in areas which are really unsafe compared to the US. i agree with you on the guest worker programs though. Edited July 8, 2009 by mr_genius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 The Top 5 MSNBC Headlines as Re-Interpreted by FOX News 5> MSNBC: George Stephanopoulos and Barney Frank Speak at Democratic Fundraiser FOX: Dems Caught Using Midget, Homosexual in Moneymaking Scheme 4> MSNBC: Gov. Sanford Admits Affair with Argentinean FOX: Gov. Sanford Brings International Affairs Expertise to Presidential Race 3> MSNBC: President Swats Fly During Interview FOX: Obama Savagely Murders Innocent Passerby 2> MSNBC: Magnitude 7.8 Earthquake Levels Hollywood FOX: Existence of God Proven! and Topfive.com's Number 1 MSNBC Headline as Re-Interpreted by FOX News... 1> MSNBC: First Lady Takes Public Bus to Area Mall FOX: Michelle Obama Uses Taxpayer-Funded 40-Passenger Vehicle for Private Shopping Boondoggle [ Copyright 2009 by Chris White/TopFive.com ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (kapkomet @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 07:32 PM) Yea. Millions have to come here to escape. OK, I get that. But, they make the choice. And I would argue, they make the choice to put up with the s*** that they do there. OH WAIT! I can blame America again! Us friggin druggies! If it weren't for us, Mexico would be alright. When the US catches a cold, Mexico gets pneumonia. We can destroy Mexico economically, or we can make them alright. We have benefited from having two countries surround us with peaceful relationships. The US drug habit does cause problems for Mexico. We force them to spend a huge part of their GNP on law enforcement to get between the South American suppliers and the US users. For a while the Maquila operations helped rebuild a middle class, but sadly those jobs are moving further south and further off shore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 06:33 PM) Instead we are going to bankrupt our social programs by making them all citizens, and giving them free retirement and social security. That's a pretty nice slap in the face to the generations who have actually followed our laws. Perhaps your plan gives them all that, but I doubt that will ever pass. If people working those jobs will bankrupt the system, who will work them without bankrupting the system? The reason the government has been turning a blind eye for generations is illegals do not take the same benefits a full citizen would take. The guest worker system I favor would allow US business, especially agriculture, to have the workers they need, while allowing the workers only limited benefits. The job, and the wages attached to the job, determine what benefits are paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 QUOTE (Texsox @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 10:14 PM) Perhaps your plan gives them all that, but I doubt that will ever pass. If people working those jobs will bankrupt the system, who will work them without bankrupting the system? The reason the government has been turning a blind eye for generations is illegals do not take the same benefits a full citizen would take. The guest worker system I favor would allow US business, especially agriculture, to have the workers they need, while allowing the workers only limited benefits. The job, and the wages attached to the job, determine what benefits are paid. So what exactly happens to all of the people who are here illegally? Everyone has already said they won't get sent back, because we can't do that. If you make them citizens, you can't keep them out of the social programs, can you? Especially because as a group, the illegals from Mexico tend to be really poor, and would need the programs a lot more than normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 08:46 AM) So what exactly happens to all of the people who are here illegally? Everyone has already said they won't get sent back, because we can't do that. If you make them citizens, you can't keep them out of the social programs, can you? Especially because as a group, the illegals from Mexico tend to be really poor, and would need the programs a lot more than normal. Quite frankly, paying that cost is the cost for not having fixed the immigration system 3 decades ago. You may not like it, but the situation as it is now is simply untenable, and there is no free way out of it. "Getting rid of them all" costs a fortune. Any sort of guest worker program costs a fortune. Any sort of legalization costs a fortune. Any sort of amnesty costs a fortune. The right way to do it was to fix the system 30 years ago, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago, whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Different subject...Leon Panetta confirms to Congress that the CIA has been misleading them and lying to them. They don't say exactly what about, but reading between the lines of the whole "Republicans screaming because Pelosi accused the CIA of Lying to Congress" matter from a few months ago, I'd say the torture program is a very good guess. — The director of the Central Intelligence Agency, Leon E. Panetta, has told the House Intelligence Committee in closed-door testimony that the C.I.A. concealed “significant actions” from Congress from 2001 until late last month, seven Democratic committee members said. In a June 26 letter to Mr. Panetta discussing his testimony, Democrats said that the agency had “misled members” of Congress for eight years about the classified matters, which the letter did not disclose. “This is similar to other deceptions of which we are aware from other recent periods,” said the letter, made public late Wednesday by Representative Rush D. Holt, Democrat of New Jersey, one of the signers. In an interview, Mr. Holt declined to reveal the nature of the C.I.A.’s alleged deceptions,. But he said, “We wouldn’t be doing this over a trivial matter.” The chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Representative Silvestre Reyes, Democrat of Texas, referred to Mr. Panetta’s disclosure in a letter to the committee’s ranking Republican, Representative Peter Hoekstra of Michigan, Congressional Quarterly reported on Wednesday. Mr. Reyes wrote that the committee “has been misled, has not been provided full and complete notifications, and (in at least one occasion) was affirmatively lied to.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Of course. They had better come up with something to collaborate the "story". It took them a month?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 The CIA is disagreeing with the notion of the letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts