The Democrat Thread

[HuskyCaucasian]

So, you believe plate tectonics just started?

There is no positive or negative reason for them to exist. So, God could have created them for whatever reason he saw fit.

 

Seems contradictory.

Not at all. Plate tectonics is the process by which earth's plates move around. Just because they are moving away from each other, doesnt prove they were once connected.

[HuskyCaucasian]

Think time scales. If plate tectonics are real but the earth is only a few thousand years old, they wouldn't have been together.

Exactly my point.

[BigSqwert]

Not at all. Plate tectonics is the process by which earth's plates move around. Just because they are moving away from each other, doesnt prove they were once connected.

In case you didn't get the memo the Earth is not flat.

[StrangeSox]

Not at all. Plate tectonics is the process by which earth's plates move around. Just because they are moving away from each other, doesnt prove they were once connected.

 

Balta can expand on this much more I'm sure, but that's not why scientists think they were once the same land mass. You find the same rock formations and the same types of geology on the coasts of both continents where they would have connected.

[StrangeSox]

Exactly my point.

 

Not to be an ass, but that plays right into my scientific illiteracy ranting. Modern geology and plate tectonics (not to mention a whole host of other physical and biological phenomenon) just don't work if you shrink the timescale to a few thousand years.

[Balta1701]

Not at all. Plate tectonics is the process by which earth's plates move around. Just because they are moving away from each other, doesnt prove they were once connected.

There is actually a real contradiction here; the plates don't just wander aimlessly for no reason, there's actually a driving force, and the driving force takes time to develop. The thing that pulls plates around relates to subduction and 2 temperature related processes. When oceanic crust gets really old (200+ million years old) it gets really cold (compared to the rest of the earth), and cold things are dense (thermal expansion). Thus, there is a driving force for oceanic plates to sink.

 

Once those sinking plates get put under pressure, because of their chemical composition, they convert to phases that are dominated by garnet and pyroxene, which are about 10% more dense on average than the rest of the mantle minerals around them. Thus, as they go down, they stay cold for a time (thus are dense) and they convert to different mineral assemblages (and thus are dense) and they are dragged downwards deeper in to the mantle until they find a level of neutral buoyancy.

 

The reason there's a contradiction there is that the driving force behind plate tectonics requires significant time. The plates don't just saunter around aimlessly; they move specifically because of processes that take time to happen.

[lostfan]

I don't actually know why, in order to be a creationist, you have to believe the Earth is only a few thousand years old. Where does it actually say that in the Bible?

[StrangeSox]

I don't actually know why, in order to be a creationist, you have to believe the Earth is only a few thousand years old. Where does it actually say that in the Bible?

 

You count timescales based on the genealogies (x begat y begat z etc.) and take the 6 days of creation in Genesis literally. There's obviously some estimating going on there so you end up with ranges between 5-12k years from what I've seen.

 

edit: that's for young-earth creationism. There's a lot of old-earth creationists and there's theistic evolution as well.

Edited July 31, 2009 by StrangeSox

[lostfan]

There is no positive or negative reason for them to exist. So, God could have created them for whatever reason he saw fit.

I'm actually really open to this idea (assuming God exists, there is really no reason for him to explain his actions to us, and it's not a given that we would understand), but where does the idea that God arbitrarily snapped his fingers and created Earth and humanityin like 4000 B.C. come from? Correct me if I'm wrong, but dates are never given.

[HuskyCaucasian]

Not to be an ass, but that plays right into my scientific illiteracy ranting. Modern geology and plate tectonics (not to mention a whole host of other physical and biological phenomenon) just don't work if you shrink the timescale to a few thousand years.

See, here is the problem with the argument that comes from the scientific world. They say "science shows this to be true, therefor it is true". But that's assuming development over millions of years. Creationist say "it was made that way".

 

So, the two sides will never reconcile. I say the earth was made that way. Maybe its a test of faith? I dunno.

 

Any ever read about the Allosaurus dinosaur bone that was C-14 dated to 10,000-16,000 years old? They supposedly lived 60 million years ago.

[Balta1701]

You count timescales based on the genealogies (x begat y begat z etc.) and take the 6 days of creation in Genesis literally. There's obviously some estimating going on there so you end up with ranges between 5-12k years from what I've seen.

The earth began on Sunday, October 23rd, 4004 B.C.

[lostfan]

You count timescales based on the genealogies (x begat y begat z etc.) and take the 6 days of creation in Genesis literally. There's obviously some estimating going on there so you end up with ranges between 5-12k years from what I've seen.

This is the part I'm talking about. We do actually know humans have only been around for a few thousand years but how do we know how long God's "days" are? For all I know, God could blink his eyes and my whole life comes and goes. I don't know. Neither does anyone else.

[HuskyCaucasian]

I'm actually really open to this idea (assuming God exists, there is really no reason for him to explain his actions to us, and it's not a given that we would understand), but where does the idea that God arbitrarily snapped his fingers and created Earth and humanityin like 4000 B.C. come from? Correct me if I'm wrong, but dates are never given.

If you track biblical genealogy, supposedly it put the earth at around 6,000 years old. I tend to say it's a few more thousand years older.

[StrangeSox]

See, here is the problem with the argument that comes from the scientific world. They say "science shows this to be true, therefor it is true". But that's assuming development over millions of years. Creationist say "it was made that way".

 

That's not exactly how it worked. A few centuries ago, everyone was a creationist and assumed a young earth. But, as scientists figured out more and more, the timescales were pushed back further and further. Not because of some sort of philosophical belief but because of what the evidence indicated. They didn't start with an assumption of billions of years but worked backwards to it.

 

So, the two sides will never reconcile. I say the earth was made that way. Maybe its a test of faith? I dunno.

 

That leaves the question of "why would God create a universe that appears to be 13.something billion years old and that life arose through common descent if it were not true?"

 

Any ever read about the Allosaurus dinosaur bone that was C-14 dated to 10,000-16,000 years old? They supposedly lived 60 million years ago.

 

You can't carbon date rock.

[HuskyCaucasian]

There is actually a real contradiction here; the plates don't just wander aimlessly for no reason, there's actually a driving force, and the driving force takes time to develop. The thing that pulls plates around relates to subduction and 2 temperature related processes. When oceanic crust gets really old (200+ million years old) it gets really cold (compared to the rest of the earth), and cold things are dense (thermal expansion). Thus, there is a driving force for oceanic plates to sink.

 

Once those sinking plates get put under pressure, because of their chemical composition, they convert to phases that are dominated by garnet and pyroxene, which are about 10% more dense on average than the rest of the mantle minerals around them. Thus, as they go down, they stay cold for a time (thus are dense) and they convert to different mineral assemblages (and thus are dense) and they are dragged downwards deeper in to the mantle until they find a level of neutral buoyancy.

 

The reason there's a contradiction there is that the driving force behind plate tectonics requires significant time. The plates don't just saunter around aimlessly; they move specifically because of processes that take time to happen.

But if there is a greater, all powerful fouce, who created the earth, he can put those actions into place with the snap of a finger.

[StrangeSox]

This is the part I'm talking about. We do actually know humans have only been around for a few thousand years but how do we know how long God's "days" are? For all I know, God could blink his eyes and my whole life comes and goes. I don't know. Neither does anyone else.

 

Biblical literalism is a fundamental tenant of some Christians. There's also young-earth muslims, as well, but it doesn't appear to be a strong strain in other religions.

[Balta1701]

See, here is the problem with the argument that comes from the scientific world. They say "science shows this to be true, therefor it is true". But that's assuming development over millions of years. Creationist say "it was made that way".

Here's my biggest problem with that argument; it requires that the deity is very, very mean-spirited. Because basically, it requires that the deity decided to create everything 6000 years ago, but also decided to set it up in such a way that everything in the universe fits well with a progression from a 14 billion year ago beginning of the universe through the modern day. Basically, the deity is required to play a huge joke on everyone.

 

I can't rule out that the Universe flashes in to being sometime in 1979 exactly as it is. But whatever reason it flashed in to existence then, it requires someone to be deliberately trying to convince me that it didn't.

[HuskyCaucasian]

This is the part I'm talking about. We do actually know humans have only been around for a few thousand years but how do we know how long God's "days" are? For all I know, God could blink his eyes and my whole life comes and goes. I don't know. Neither does anyone else.

And every culture has a different way of measuring "years"

[StrangeSox]

But if there is a greater, all powerful fouce, who created the earth, he can put those actions into place with the snap of a finger.

 

But why create something that looks like X happened when really it did not? Why make the earth appear old instead of just letting the clock run a few billion years?

[HuskyCaucasian]

You can't carbon date rock.

If you cant carbon date rock, then how did a scientist, not knowing it was dinosaur rock, carbon date it?

[StrangeSox]

And every culture has a different way of measuring "years"

 

Every culture measures years based on solar and stellar patterns and they all correlate. They might say its a different year number but the time scales are the same.

[BigSqwert]

But if there is a greater, all powerful fouce, who created the earth, he can put those actions into place with the snap of a finger.

Why ever teach any science class again if everything can be explained "God did it this way and that's the way it is"?

[StrangeSox]

If you cant carbon date rock, then how did a scientist, not knowing it was dinosaur rock, carbon date it?

 

You can attempt to carbon-date anything but you'll get meaningless results if there's not carbon in the thing you're dating.

 

You can date rock using various other radiometric dating techniques that don't involve carbon.

 

edit: also, 12-15k years still doubles your timescale.

Edited July 31, 2009 by StrangeSox

[lostfan]

If you track biblical genealogy, supposedly it put the earth at around 6,000 years old. I tend to say it's a few more thousand years older.

Well, I personally think it's pretty silly to assume the universe and life etc. appeared out of nowhere. I just can't see the earth being a few thousand years old though. Why would God just f*** with us like that?

[NorthSideSox72]

Well, I personally think it's pretty silly to assume the universe and life etc. appeared out of nowhere. I just can't see the earth being a few thousand years old though. Why would God just f*** with us like that?

Not to mention the history of cultures that dates to well before then, and is documented (in a way) all over the earth. And Pangea is also bolstered by living species and their changes and movements.

 

Literal creationism, that God snapped his fingers and the earth appeared around 4000 BC, is chosen ignorance. Note, I am NOT saying that God, or faith, or religion, or beliefs are therefore ignorant. I think its simply the fact that people take the Bible, a written work of man, far too literally and selectively.