The Democrat Thread

[lostfan]

Amendment to Tancredo "literacy test": List 20 things you don't like, which happened in US history. Must be major events. Can't list like "I got a parking ticket".

20 is a lot... lol

 

1. Slavery: BAD

2. Jim Crow: Bad

3. Killing the Indians: Bad

4. Women not being able to vote until 1920: Bad, but eh. Different culture

5. Civil War: Mixed reviews, effectively ended slavery, federal government grew in power, depends who you ask if that's a good thing

6. Vietnam: Amazed that there are still people that think this wasn't a big waste of time that got a bunch of people killed for what were some pretty s***ty reasons in hindsight

7. War of 1812: Kind of dumb and pointless

8. Failed Bay of Pigs invasion: Stupid, stupid, stupid

9. Reconstruction: Since it ended without finishing, bad

10. Overthrowing Iranian government in 1953: In hindsight, really bad idea

11. Neglecting Afghanistan after Soviet withdrawal: Bad

12. Federal Government gradually becoming bloated bloated bureaucracy with massive defense budget financed through debt that Washington is unable/unwilling to control: Bad

 

That's the best I can do for now. I fail at being allowed to vote

[bmags]

you could clump together that whole "boys club of the CIA being unchecked from inception to 63" and really even longer. Like CIA paying for the shah's prostitutes for their whole family and what not.

[lostfan]

Yeah actually the Bay of Pigs thing happened because of the Iran and Nicaragua overthrows. Everybody thought covert ops were the way to go in the 50s (Eisenhower was mostly a good president except for him falling for this) because they seemed to go smoothly at the time. They weren't. They just seemed to work for a few years until it was clear it was a mistake, after anybody who made those decisions could be held politically accountable. JFK inherited the Bay of Pigs debacle and it ended up blowing up in his face, so that calmed all that talk for a while.

[bmags]

well, i guess we just have to wait for torture to blow up in someones face for it to...oh wait, we already know we tortured and now they turned the debate around so that we SHOULD torture and anything else is weakness. Silly me.

[kapkomet]

OMG OMG OMG.

 

/Carry on.

[bmags]

Yes, torture, who cares, right? Who cares that the united states is opting Khumer Rouge tactics? Not me! Because real americans know that the khumer rouge was just misunderstood

[mr_genius]

the khumer rouge was just misunderstood

 

aren't all rogues?

[kapkomet]

We are some evil motherf***ers who torture! TORTURE! OMG TOOOOOOOOOOURTERETTETUUUUUUREEEE!!!!!!!!!

 

*yawn*

 

 

 

 

 

[bmags]

Yes.

[bmags]

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives...content=Twitter

 

Another example of how obama just has no clue how to fight islamofascists

[lostfan]

The "law enforcement approach to terrorism" and "capitulating" or "pre 9-11 approach" or however that talking point is phrased is just a fallacy at best, a bald-faced lie made out of whole cloth at worst. You just can't say that with any kind of credibility when the administration still has troops in Iraq (for now), increases the American presence in Afghanistan by about a factor of 3, and authorizes twice as many Predator strikes as Bush did, while pissing off his base because he continued a lot of Bush's policies. I guess it doesn't count if you don't arbitrarily invade another country.

[bmags]

The "law enforcement approach to terrorism" and "capitulating" or "pre 9-11 approach" or however that talking point is phrased is just a fallacy at best, a bald-faced lie made out of whole cloth at worst. You just can't say that with any kind of credibility when the administration still has troops in Iraq (for now), increases the American presence in Afghanistan by about a factor of 3, and authorizes twice as many Predator strikes as Bush did, while pissing off his base because he continued a lot of Bush's policies. I guess it doesn't count if you don't arbitrarily invade another country.

 

It was sarcasm.

 

That was a big capture.

[lostfan]

It was sarcasm.

 

That was a big capture.

I know, I wrote that as if you said the opposite of what you posted

[StrangeSox]

Americans are dumb enough already. I know I word that cynically honestly, but I'm serious.

 

FIFY.

[StrangeSox]

they might not be able to pass Tancredo's "literacy test" if that passes.

 

Neither could about 99% of Americans, myself included, if they were modeled off of 1950's and 60's era tests.

 

A lot of the conservative platform (not all conservatives, but enough) is rapidly morphing into complete anti-education, anti-immigrant, anti-government, anti-anything-but-retarded-pro-business-populist-paradoxism.

[StrangeSox]

We are some evil motherf***ers who torture! TORTURE! OMG TOOOOOOOOOOURTERETTETUUUUUUREEEE!!!!!!!!!

 

*yawn*

 

I know you tried, but this isn't kaperbole. It's true. The US government tortured the s*** out of people while being run by some evil motherf***ers who are retarded enough to believe that's the way to go.

[farmteam]

I wish certain people would bother to learn all of American history and not just the rah-rah parts (We fought a war for independence and won! Lincoln freed the slaves! We saved the world from Nazis and several decades later also from Communism!) so they can see there's some not-so-good and sometimes just plain bad stuff in there, and that pointing this out doesn't make someone a bad person or that the fact that these things happen makes us all bad people. And a lot of it is relevant today... that's why it's taught... it's not some liberal conspiracy to smear America or some dumb s***.

 

This is a really interesting point, if only because it reminds of me as a kid. I specifically thinking during specific certain parts of my childhood, "Why are there so many bad countries that America has to clean up after them, since we can do no wrong?" or "We're so awesome, we've won every war we've participated in!" Granted I was a little kid -- 8 or 9 -- and as I've gotten older I've obviously been able to comprehend things a more, and critically analyze them a lot better than a decade ago. Because of that, I've been able to see the dark shades of our history (and as I get even older, how both those good and bad times tie in to the current state of affairs).

 

However, for a while I thought this deeper, less jaded view of American history (and all things, really) was just a natural part of growing up that everyone experiences, and for the most part this is true. But I've unfortunately come to notice what you have -- some people, regardless of their age, education level, etc., simply choose that jaded view, and I don't understand why.

 

 

[bmags]

it is kind of curious to me though when they teach us things so simplistically at points that it's just completely wrong. I have no examples, but i just vividly remember the reactions in high school and college when I was like "why the hell would the even teach us the lie"

[kapkomet]

I know you tried, but this isn't kaperbole. It's true. The US government tortured the s*** out of people while being run by some evil motherf***ers who are retarded enough to believe that's the way to go.

 

Ok, sure. Concentration Camp, USA. Er, CLOSE GUANTANAMO!

 

Tourtourous bastards!

 

[bmags]

because we all know, if it's not as bad as the holocaust, it's not evil.

[mr_genius]

A lot of the conservative platform (not all conservatives, but enough) is rapidly morphing into complete anti-education, anti-immigrant, anti-government, anti-anything-but-retarded-pro-business-populist-paradoxism.

 

A strange paradox.

 

Corporations are for unlimited immigration and no minimum wage. Populists want economic protectionism. Corporations want total free trade. Academia is at times anti-corporation, pro-immigration, pro-government. Populists want more educational opportunities. Academia raises tuition out of reach of populists.

 

 

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Ok, sure. Concentration Camp, USA. Er, CLOSE GUANTANAMO!

 

Tourtourous bastards!

 

ok, sure.

 

We never tortured anyone. Never supported brutal dictatorships. Peace, love, rainbows and unicorns!

 

The government is made of people. Some people are real evil motherf***ers (i.e. Cheney) who's minds are so f***ed and detached from reality that they do and promote some evil s***, like torture.

 

[DukeNukeEm]

I like America a lot, and I'm getting a little bit sick of cliched "I remember when I started to question things!" stuff as it pertains to our history. Have people lost sight of how justified we usually are in what were trying to accomplish? Defeat the brutal dictatorships of the 30's and 40's who sought to build empire through eugenics, beat the Soviet brand of communsim which proved to be a destructive force that set much of the world back 50 or so years, eradicate international terrorism that's claimed thousands of lives... these are good things for us to be doing. We've even cleaned up after some of our messes with things like the infusion of Iraqi infrastructure development and the Marshall Plan*.

 

You all get so caught up in the means that you forget the ends; America by and large has been an overwhelmingly positive influence on the world. We've had our f***ups (Native American genocide, Latin America) but they are tiny blips compared to our successes.

 

*our track record here is not perfect, but its a step up from previous empires who left everything they couldn't loot to die.

[bmags]

So then torture is justified?

 

Or then so we should bring back civics tests for voters?

 

yeah welcome to nobodyisarguingthatville

[Balta1701]

That was a big capture.

What's kind of funny to me about that capture is that just last week I started seeing articles on the right saying that Obama's tactics were actually becoming too effective at killing terror suspects before they could be captured, thus denying us any intelligence that could be gained from them.