The Democrat Thread

[NorthSideSox72]

For that matter, its not Sarah Palin's place either. Nor is it Newt Gingrich's place. Nor is it Mitt Romney's place. Or Harry Reid. They all did make a stance. And in reality, it was those stances that forced a presidential response. Or maybe its the GOP PAC's that are spending money on a TV campaign to generate outrage to try and stop getting a community center built in an old Burlington Coat Factory because Muslims are the new gays.

Sarah Palin is a non-entity, same with Gingrich. Reid should have kept his yap shut. I don't care what people who are basically just media shills (Palin, Gingrich) say. The President and the Senate Majority Leader (who represents Nevada) would better serve their party and their roles by not saying anything.

 

[Rex Kickass]

Sarah Palin is a non-entity, same with Gingrich. Reid should have kept his yap shut. I don't care what people who are basically just media shills (Palin, Gingrich) say. The President and the Senate Majority Leader (who represents Nevada) would better serve their party and their roles by not saying anything.

 

Palin and Gingrich, as much as we would like them to not be non-entities, are entities. They are legitimate contenders for the Presidential nomination in 2012, and what they say - can to an extent - matter.

 

Did Obama's statement hurt Democratic chances in November? Maybe. But I think he did absolutely the right thing over the weekend by affirming the freedom to practice the religion of your choice over the continuous and growing astroturf outrage over the Burlington Coat Factory mosque.

[NorthSideSox72]

Palin and Gingrich, as much as we would like them to not be non-entities, are entities. They are legitimate contenders for the Presidential nomination in 2012, and what they say - can to an extent - matter.

 

Did Obama's statement hurt Democratic chances in November? Maybe. But I think he did absolutely the right thing over the weekend by affirming the freedom to practice the religion of your choice over the continuous and growing astroturf outrage over the Burlington Coat Factory mosque.

When I say non-entities, I mean that they hold no high political office, and therefore I have no expectations for their conduct in these matters. If they are idiots, which they often are, I don't really care. I care more when the President does things he shouldn't.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

For that matter, its not Sarah Palin's place either. Nor is it Newt Gingrich's place. Nor is it Mitt Romney's place. Or Harry Reid. They all did make a stance. And in reality, it was those stances that forced a presidential response. Or maybe its the GOP PAC's that are spending money on a TV campaign to generate outrage to try and stop getting a community center built in an old Burlington Coat Factory because Muslims are the new gays.

 

Yeah because in this scenario there's ZERO difference there. It's not like muslim extremists killed 3k people near the site of this place. Forgot gays did that kind of stuff all the time. GMAFB. I don't think many people are seriously arguing that these people don't have the right to build their center there, it's a question of whether or not common sense dictates that it's a good idea.

 

[StrangeSox]

Should we stop churches or christian community centers from being built near Planned Parenthood facilities because crazy fundamentalists have bombed them or murdered doctors before?

 

And how far away does "common sense" dictate that they build any sort of muslim building?

 

edit: you're also making a good argument that the fear and hatred of gays is completely nonsensical and should stop immediately since they haven't harmed anyone.

Edited August 18, 2010 by StrangeSox

[Balta1701]

Should we stop churches or christian community centers from being built near Planned Parenthood facilities because crazy fundamentalists have bombed them or murdered doctors before?

I like the Daily Show's version. It's too soon for Catholic churches to be allowed to be built near schools.

[Balta1701]

Whoda thunk I'd be constantly putting videos up of the guy who defended Bush in Bush v. Gore. (Ted Olson lost his wife on 9/11).

 

[BigSqwert]

With regards to the mosque story, was wondering if anyone mentioned the Dubai port thing that Dems were up in arms about a few years back.

[Balta1701]

With regards to the mosque story, was wondering if anyone mentioned the Dubai port thing that Dems were up in arms about a few years back.

A few people have, and it is probably actually a good comparison.

[Rex Kickass]

Yeah because in this scenario there's ZERO difference there. It's not like muslim extremists killed 3k people near the site of this place. Forgot gays did that kind of stuff all the time. GMAFB. I don't think many people are seriously arguing that these people don't have the right to build their center there, it's a question of whether or not common sense dictates that it's a good idea.

 

Actually there is no difference.

 

Rather than talk about their own record or any real agenda, they talked about 9/11 and how gays were out to destroy marriage in 2004. In 2010, their path to victory is ignore talking about their own nonexistent agenda - and instead talk about how some muslims want to build a community center that happens to hold a mosque, in a neighborhood wwhere an abandoned Burlington Coat Factory stands because its relatively close to a location where there was a terrorist attack.

 

As far as the GOP is concerned, this year's Burlington Coat Factory community center is 2004's Gay Marriage.

[Jenksismyhero]

Should we stop churches or christian community centers from being built near Planned Parenthood facilities because crazy fundamentalists have bombed them or murdered doctors before?

 

And how far away does "common sense" dictate that they build any sort of muslim building?

 

edit: you're also making a good argument that the fear and hatred of gays is completely nonsensical and should stop immediately since they haven't harmed anyone.

 

Well, we can ignore the reality of the situation, or we can say that in this particular instance, it's just bad form. I never said the government should stop them. The idea that people who aren't ok with it are suddenly racist (or are treating muslims like "they" treat gays) is ridiculous.

[StrangeSox]

not racist but bigoted against muslims. This is clearly the case because opponents are equating the extremists with all muslims.

 

I'll ask again: how far away does "common sense" dictate it should be?

[Jenksismyhero]

not racist but bigoted against muslims. This is clearly the case because opponents are equating the extremists with all muslims.

 

I'll ask again: how far away does "common sense" dictate it should be?

 

Bigoted my ass. It's just bad form! It's rude. It's unsympathetic. It ignores a significant event in our history.

 

 

[Balta1701]

Bigoted my ass. It's just bad form! It's rude. It's unsympathetic. It ignores a significant event in our history.

So, I take it all that stuff about how "we believe Muslims are a peaceful people" and "all Muslims weren't responsible for this event" were just BS?

[Rex Kickass]

Well, we can ignore the reality of the situation, or we can say that in this particular instance, it's just bad form. I never said the government should stop them. The idea that people who aren't ok with it are suddenly racist (or are treating muslims like "they" treat gays) is ridiculous.

 

I think it's ok for people to oppose it. I think its fine to stand before your community's zoning board or community council and seek means to stop it. That was done in New York City. It had to pass through several hurdles and commissions to get approval to get built. And it did.

 

What's appalling about all this, and the point I've been arguing all along - is the national faux outrage that the Republicans are whipping up. This became a national political issue before the President said word one about it. This became a touchstone of what Republicans are running on.

 

And what's more sad is that it will work. As much as it pains me to see this, the GOP seems to find the only way to victory for them is through belittlement and exclusion. I'm not saying that Democrats don't play this card too, they do all too often. It just happens that the Republicans are better at it.

[Jenksismyhero]

So, I take it all that stuff about how "we believe Muslims are a peaceful people" and "all Muslims weren't responsible for this event" were just BS?

 

Oh Balta, you make me laugh.

[Rex Kickass]

Bigoted my ass. It's just bad form! It's rude. It's unsympathetic. It ignores a significant event in our history.

 

So would putting a shopping mall in the same place. Where's the outrage there?

[Balta1701]

So would putting a shopping mall in the same place. Where's the outrage there?

The several strip clubs in the area are less offensive than the Muslims.

[Jenksismyhero]

I think it's ok for people to oppose it. I think its fine to stand before your community's zoning board or community council and seek means to stop it. That was done in New York City. It had to pass through several hurdles and commissions to get approval to get built. And it did.

 

What's appalling about all this, and the point I've been arguing all along - is the national faux outrage that the Republicans are whipping up. This became a national political issue before the President said word one about it. This became a touchstone of what Republicans are running on.

 

And what's more sad is that it will work. As much as it pains me to see this, the GOP seems to find the only way to victory for them is through belittlement and exclusion. I'm not saying that Democrats don't play this card too, they do all too often. It just happens that the Republicans are better at it.

 

Oh GMAB. You act as though the evil puppet master Republicans run the country. And it won't work, because there's nothing they can do about it. They can puff their chest and yell outrage and 6 months from now all this s***'ll be forgotten.

 

I just hate that in this country whenever you don't have the progressive view on an issue you're instantly deemed a bigoted racist. So unnecessary (and wrong).

[Jenksismyhero]

So would putting a shopping mall in the same place. Where's the outrage there?

 

Yep, just ignore the reality of the situation to fit your argument. It's only because they're Muslim. Context means nothing. Republicans just hate brown people, period. There, you won.

[Soxbadger]

I just hate that in this country whenever you don't have the progressive view on an issue you're instantly deemed a bigoted racist. So unnecessary (and wrong)

 

I dont think this is true at all.

 

In fact I think its the opposite.

 

I hate that in this country whenever you don't support the "white mans agenda" you're instantly deemed an Anti-American communist terrorist.

 

A little tongue in cheek but you can make the argument either way, depending on what side of the fence you sit.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

I dont think this is true at all.

 

In fact I think its the opposite.

 

I hate that in this country whenever you don't support the "white mans agenda" you're instantly deemed an Anti-American communist terrorist.

 

A little tongue in cheek but you can make the argument either way, depending on what side of the fence you sit.

 

On a mainstream level it's not even close to equal.

[Soxbadger]

Who defines what mainstream is?

 

What is mainstream in one part of the country, is certainly not mainstream in another. You happen to live in a Northern state, where there is a disproportionate urban population. What is mainstream political opinion in Illinois, is certainly not mainstream in another state.

 

I dont think youre a bigot, I just dont think you support the constitution as strongly as I do, at least not on this matter.

[Rex Kickass]

Oh GMAB. You act as though the evil puppet master Republicans run the country. And it won't work, because there's nothing they can do about it. They can puff their chest and yell outrage and 6 months from now all this s***'ll be forgotten.

 

I just hate that in this country whenever you don't have the progressive view on an issue you're instantly deemed a bigoted racist. So unnecessary (and wrong).

 

Again, my problem is not that whether or not you support the building of a community center in a former Burlington Coat Factory when it happens to contain a mosque. My problem is that one particular political party has chosen to take a local zoning issue and frame it as an attack on America completely devoid of any actual context. It appeals to the worst of all of us, frankly.

 

If you choose to think that the location is a poor one, that doesn't make you a bigot, and it doesn't make you a racist. If you choose to exploit an opinion for political gain, and describe in terms that insinuate that the US is at war with an entire religion (like Palin, Gingrich and a surprisingly large number of GOP hacks have done) by appealing to fear and anger, that would make you a bigot (although not a racist.)

 

So are you a bigot for opposing this project? No. Are the people making a mountain out of a molehill on this issue to win seats bigots? You betcha!

[Rex Kickass]

Yep, just ignore the reality of the situation to fit your argument. It's only because they're Muslim. Context means nothing. Republicans just hate brown people, period. There, you won.

 

The reality of this situation is that if the WTC site was truly hallowed ground, we shouldn't be doing things like building a shopping mall right in the middle of it. We shouldn't have strip clubs and gay bars right next to it. Or any bars for that matter. But we do. Yet, there's no outrage there.

 

I've heard the argument that the Burlington Coat Factory mosque would be like putting a Japanese monument right next to Pearl Harbor. But shouldn't the idea of commercializing the same hallowed ground with a Baby GAP be just as abhorrent? If that's not the case, why shouldn't Disney be able to build their Gettysburg theme park?

 

We either treat "hallowed ground" like hallowed ground, or we don't.