The Democrat Thread

[Balta1701]

Dude, you yourself said earlier that if it was more productive, we should have more of them. Now you are saying having more of them doesn't mean more productivity? Which is it?

 

And again, would you please stop with the "Oh we should just ignore the various bubbles" sarcastic crap? NO ONE IS SAYING THAT. At all. It might actually be possible to have a real discussion on this, if you didn't spend your time inaccurately re-stating (actually manipulating) other people's points before tearing into said fake points as if anyone said them.

You can have more productivity in one sector of the economy and as a consequence wind up with less productivity in another. I don't know why that's hard to understand. If I have a more productive health care sector in the sense that as a whole the economy produces more spending on health care, that might or might not be a good thing for the economy as a whole. The Health Care sector continues strong growth as we speak, but as it's doing to, it's in general a drag on every other sector of the economy because every other sector is paying higher health care costs and as such is winding up with less job creation, lower wages, and less spending. Hell, if we got rid of the government backstop, wouldn't the financial sector basically no longer exist?

 

The bubbles are 100% key to all of this. My entire point is that if you want me to believe that increasing financial "innovation" has been a good thing and has increased productivity overall, then it has to have done so to the extent that it overwhelms the damage done by the bursting of the bubbles. If it can't do that, then it has been a negative on the whole. The bubbles are absolutely key, and if you want to prove to me that financial engineering of the last 30 years has been a great boon, you need to prove that productivity as a whole (not just in the banks) has been increased to the point that the bursting bubbles didn't completely wipe it out.

[NorthSideSox72]

You can have more productivity in one sector of the economy and as a consequence wind up with less productivity in another. I don't know why that's hard to understand. If I have a more productive health care sector in the sense that as a whole the economy produces more spending on health care, that might or might not be a good thing for the economy as a whole. The Health Care sector continues strong growth as we speak, but as it's doing to, it's in general a drag on every other sector of the economy because every other sector is paying higher health care costs and as such is winding up with less job creation, lower wages, and less spending. Hell, if we got rid of the government backstop, wouldn't the financial sector basically no longer exist?

 

The bubbles are 100% key to all of this. My entire point is that if you want me to believe that increasing financial "innovation" has been a good thing and has increased productivity overall, then it has to have done so to the extent that it overwhelms the damage done by the bursting of the bubbles. If it can't do that, then it has been a negative on the whole. The bubbles are absolutely key, and if you want to prove to me that financial engineering of the last 30 years has been a great boon, you need to prove that productivity as a whole (not just in the banks) has been increased to the point that the bursting bubbles didn't completely wipe it out.

First, look AGAIN at what I said that you felt the need to go after. I was railing on this author's false premise that financial engineers are not real engineers, and that they are not productive. Clearly, they are both. If one sector grows while others shrink, that clearly means the growing one is productive at the least.

 

Second, no, the bubbles are NOT key to this, as again, you are trying to drag the argument in another direction. Do you really think that these people wouldn't be growing in number of they weren't productive? Do you really think that the bubbles were created by software programmers?

 

[Balta1701]

First, look AGAIN at what I said that you felt the need to go after. I was railing on this author's false premise that financial engineers are not real engineers, and that they are not productive. Clearly, they are both. If one sector grows while others shrink, that clearly means the growing one is productive at the least.

 

Second, no, the bubbles are NOT key to this, as again, you are trying to drag the argument in another direction. Do you really think that these people wouldn't be growing in number of they weren't productive? Do you really think that the bubbles were created by software programmers?

A virus grows in number and still kills the host.

 

I won't say what you want me to say to invalidate my point...which is that the bubbles were "Only" created by financial engineering. However...I think it's entirely reasonable to say that if there hadn't been these horrendous models used up and down the line, the bubbles wouldn't have happened. They were only possible because the decision-makers could convince themselves that they'd appropriately factored in the risk in their decisions, when in reality, their models were totally off kilter.

 

You say that same thing a lot in engineering problems. It wasn't "Only" the SRB flaw that caused the Challenger to blow up...but if that flaw never existed, then the disaster never happens.

[NorthSideSox72]

A virus grows in number and still kills the host.

Seriously?

 

I'm done.

 

[Balta1701]

Seriously?

 

I'm done.

Well, clearly we're not making any headway on this issue, I'll leave it at that as well.

[kapkomet]

Go back and read how this started. The article stated, ridiculously, that somehow financial engineers are not productive members of society. Its a laughable premise. That's what I was getting at, and its still true.

 

Then you tried to make out what a financial engineer is, and I am telling you from a dozen years of experience working IN FINANCIAL TECHNOLOGY, that your understanding is wrong.

 

And even now, you are looking at one particular variety of engineer, and you are completely ignoring the way this actually works. Financial engineers do not create instruments, nor do they even decide (usually) what to model or why. They take data, and requirements from a business person who is looking for something, they work the data, hand over the results, and say, "here is what the model(s) say". They are ENGINEERS. They have as much blame, and credit, and productivity as, say, aerospace engineers. Both have done things that resulted in catastrophe, but the idea that either entire field if professionals is not "productive" is ridiculous.

 

No, certain people know more then everyone, everywhere about everything, even in technical things they have no experience in.

 

It's tiresome and why this place sucks now, and this last little bit of an exchange illustrates it perfectly moreso then the veiled stuff everywhere else in this forum. Certain people don't want to learn, cetain people always want to be right to the point of vomiting crap and seeing what sticks.

 

But I, for one, do appreciate the nuances and experience you're trying to bring out here.

Edited October 27, 2010 by kapkomet

[bmags]

No, certain people know more then everyone, everywhere about everything, even in technical things they have no experience in.

 

It's tiresome and why this place sucks now, and this last little bit of an exchange illustrates it perfectly moreso then the veiled stuff everywhere else in this forum. Certain people don't want to learn, cetain people always want to be right to the point of vomiting crap and seeing what sticks.

 

But I, for one, do appreciate the nuances and experience you're trying to bring out here.

 

kap, this is the most hypocritical bulls*** i've ever read.

[kapkomet]

kap, this is the most hypocritical bulls*** i've ever read.

 

Dear bmags,

 

I'm glad you have some nice things to say to me, as always.

 

However, this is exactly why the civility is non-existant here. People have a lot of expertise and knowledge here, but gee, imagine this, people like you just outright dismiss it because of someone's handle on a computer screen or have to have something obnoxious with every point.

 

I'm glad to note that you're an expert in all matters and just adds to the much larger point once again.

 

In case you haven't noticed, I have let a lot of things go in the last six weeks, because the discourse is old, but when I do say something that's perfectly honest and in black and white, I'm the hypocrite?

 

Have a nice day!

 

Cheers,

Kap

[bmags]

but when I do say something that's perfectly honest and in black and white, I'm the hypocrite?

 

Have a nice day!

 

Cheers,

Kap

 

yes. Thinking you are being honest about something that's your opinion does not mean you cannot be defined as a hypocrite. I didn't doubt you were being sincere.

[kapkomet]

Dear bmags,

 

This goes on WAY too much around here. Yes, it's my opinion, and yes, it's truth. I'm sorry if this offends you, and wow, I don't think I make myself to be an expert at anything, unless I educate myself to actually learn something about a topic. What a concept.

 

I personally believe that you can learn things from people who have experience in certain things. Apparently, this cannot be so, because of "hypocrite" tendencies.

 

Again, have a nice day.

 

Cheers,

Kap

[Rex Kickass]

If you guys have a personal beef, take it elsewhere. This is not the place for it.

[Rex Kickass]

http://slatest.slate.com/id/2272509/entry/4/

 

The Rand Paul supporter who stomped on a liberal activist's head outside a senatorial debate Monday night has been ordered to appear in court. A judge will decide whether charges are warrented for Tim Profitt, Paul's (former) Bourbon County campaign coordinator. According to MoveOn.org, Lauren Valle suffered a concussion after she was pulled to the ground, pinned down, and stomped on by Paul supporters as the Republican candidate arrived at the debate. Profitt, who would apparently make a great politician, has admitted to "placing his shoe firmly" on Valle's head. He's also issued a sort-of apology in which he says he regrets the incident, while simultaneously blaming the police for not controlling the crowd better. But Valle says Profitt considered himself in charge of crowd control Monday night: "There was five of them, they motioned to each other and got behind me," Valle said as she described the incident Tuesday. "My partner Alex heard them say 'We are here to do crowd control, we might have to take someone out.'" After what some people called a tepid initial response, Paul issued a statement condemning the head-stomping incident Tuesday and distanced himself from Profitt. "The Paul for Senate campaign is extremely disappointed in, and condemns the actions of a supporter last night outside the KET debate," a campaign statement said. "Whatever the perceived provocation, any level of aggression or violence is deplorable, and will not be tolerated by our campaign."

[GoSox05]

They like to protest, but don't like to be protested.

[kapkomet]

If you guys have a personal beef, take it elsewhere. This is not the place for it.

 

 

But mom, he started it!

 

Couldn't resist.

[Steve9347]

If you guys have a personal beef, take it elsewhere. This is not the place for it.

Actually, everytime I click this thread I'm certain someone will be ripping Kap!

[kapkomet]

Actually, everytime I click this thread I'm certain someone will be ripping Kap!

 

 

[Balta1701]

Well, I'd say my favorite overall thing from yesterday's suite of interviews was that the President actually had to defend against questions from a skeptical person on the left...rather than having to deal with the implicit assumption that the Health Care bill went too far, there were questions about why things didn't move fast enough or change enough.

 

And the best single moment..."Larry Summers is doing a heckuva job"...(pauses to gather his words, spontaneous laughter breaks out in the crowd), Stewart catches it, then Obama catches it and you can watch his face suddenly frown.

[Balta1701]

Well, this will make the deficit hawks happy give people another thing to want to waste money on along the border.

The Department of Homeland Security, apparently ready to cut its losses on a so-called invisible fence along the U.S.-Mexico border, has decided not to exercise a one-year option for Boeing to continue work on the troubled multibillion-dollar plan involving high-tech cameras, radar and vibration sensors.

 

The result, after an investment of more than $1 billion, may be a system with only 53 miles of unreliable coverage along the nearly 2,000-mile border.

 

The virtual fence was intended to link advanced monitoring technologies to command centers for Border Patrol to identify and thwart human trafficking and drug smuggling. But from the beginning, the program has been plagued by missed deadlines and the limitations of existing electronics in rugged, unpredictable wilderness where high winds and a tumbleweed can be enough to trigger an alarm.

[NorthSideSox72]

Well, this will make the deficit hawks happy give people another thing to want to waste money on along the border.

Guaranteed, an actual, physical wall would be far more expensive and still need a lot of the same monitoring anyway. I still think that the virtual wall is the best solution here, if you are going to do anything at all.

 

[StrangeSox]

It's enough of a headache to manage a virtual + physical security perimeter that's a few miles long. Managing a perimeter that's 2000 miles is a nightmare, particularly for the false and nuisance alarms mentioned in the article. These systems are not cheap, especially for any durable.

 

I just don't think it's realistic to attempt a contiguous 2000 mile intrusion detection system.

[Balta1701]

Guaranteed, an actual, physical wall would be far more expensive and still need a lot of the same monitoring anyway. I still think that the virtual wall is the best solution here, if you are going to do anything at all.

So, ineffective, multi-billion dollar money pit 1, or ineffective, multi-billion dollar money pit 2.

 

My vote is pretty obvious...the "not anything at all part".

[kapkomet]

So, ineffective, multi-billion dollar money pit 1, or ineffective, multi-billion dollar money pit 2.

 

My vote is pretty obvious...the "not anything at all part".

 

 

 

"Today, we're all Americans."

[Balta1701]

Remember how Andrew Breitbart totally destroyed his reputation with that heavily edited video of Shirley Sherrod that got her fired slightly before she was re-offered a job, and how we all agreed that Breitbart was a total embarrassment and the only reason for any news organization to ever hire him again is if they wanted to look like a complete bunch of useless right-wing idiots who care nothing about accuracy and everything about promoting the Republican agenda?

Media Matters has confirmed that noted propagandist Andrew Breitbart will provide analysis for ABC News during their election night coverage.

 

After Breitbart's BigJournalism.com website reported that Breitbart would "be bringing analysis live from Arizona" for ABC, Media Matters confirmed his participation in a town hall meeting anchored by ABC's David Muir and Facebook's Randi Zuckerberg that will be featured in the network's coverage.

 

Asked about Breitbart's history of unethical behavior and misinformation, ABC News' David Ford told Media Matters: "He will be one of many voices on our air, including Bill Adair of Politifact. If Andrew Breitbart says something that is incorrect, we have other voices to call him on it."

[lostfan]

Remember how Andrew Breitbart totally destroyed his reputation with that heavily edited video of Shirley Sherrod that got her fired slightly before she was re-offered a job, and how we all agreed that Breitbart was a total embarrassment and the only reason for any news organization to ever hire him again is if they wanted to look like a complete bunch of useless right-wing idiots who care nothing about accuracy and everything about promoting the Republican agenda?

Damn liberal media

[Balta1701]

Damn liberal media

But there's a reporter and a person from facebook for balance!