The Democrat Thread

[lostfan]

The problem is that HIS CRONIES are still in charge and won't do it.

I know. Probably at the end of the day he's just gonna cave and they will end up being permanent. The odds of him facing a primary in 2012 will shoot up if he does this though.

[StrangeSox]

The message here is quite funny. WHO's RAISING TAXES? After promising he wouldn't on the middle class? Oh, this just can't be.

 

 

NO ONE. IT'S A TAX CUT THAT WAS SET TO EXPIRE.

[Soxbadger]

Its all in the way you frame it. I just wish people cared more about trying to help the country than catching people in "gotchya" moments.

 

Both sides do it, and its annoying.

 

Anyway, I agree that there have to be higher taxes. Who should the burden be placed on, everyone equally or those who can arguably most afford it?

 

I tend to lean towards the latter, but one way or the other you cant just magically make the debt or deficit go away.

[Balta1701]

The message here is quite funny. WHO's RAISING TAXES? After promising he wouldn't on the middle class? Oh, this just can't be.

The 2001 Republican Majority. They wrote the law this way. If the President does nothing, he doesn't raise taxes.

[Balta1701]

I tend to lean towards the latter, but one way or the other you cant just magically make the debt or deficit go away.

You're right...but...nothing makes it go away like economic growth.

[NorthSideSox72]

The driving point was the 'property rights' bulls***.

 

Yes and that was indeed some scary s***.

 

Pelosi forced a vote on extending middle class tax cuts, and decoupled tax cuts for people making over 250k.

 

It passed, with only 3 GOP votes saying yes.

 

And this is what the Dems are going for - show the country just how stupid the GOP is in their petulant behavior on this issue. As Gingrich put it recently, split up the taxes at the 250k line, and vote on each. That will show people's true colors.

 

 

Word is Reid is planning on forcing a Cloture vote. With a second package on the table to extend tax cuts for non millionaires.

 

I still despise Reid, but I hope he can find a way to get it to a vote. That would be a huge victory for sanity - pass the under 250k extension, forcing the GOP to not only look stupid for their "block everything" method, but also force BOTH parties to show where they stand on above 250k.

 

[Balta1701]

but also force BOTH parties to show where they stand on above 250k.

It will pass with a nice bipartisan margin.

[NorthSideSox72]

It will pass with a nice bipartisan margin.

And there ya go. Let's see it happen.

 

[Rex Kickass]

And there ya go. Let's see it happen.

We'll find out tomorrow. Reid is forcing a cloture vote on the House bill only tomorrow. This after the Democrats accepted a compromise package that the Republicans suggested, and then refused upon acceptance during Senate negotiations.

[Balta1701]

Julian Assange fired from IT job at the Pentagon.

[BigSqwert]

Julian Assange fired from IT job at the Pentagon.

[mr_genius]

Julian Assange fired from IT job at the Pentagon.

 

haha

[Soxbadger]

Balta,

 

I havent seen a significant correlation between tax decreases and economic growth or tax increases and economic growth.

 

So unless we are going to drastically cut spending, were going to need to make more money and raising taxes is the most practical solution.

[Balta1701]

Balta,

 

I havent seen a significant correlation between tax decreases and economic growth or tax increases and economic growth.

 

So unless we are going to drastically cut spending, were going to need to make more money and raising taxes is the most practical solution.

I think this chart makes a pretty good reply.

 

[lostfan]

I had a chart somewhere I can't find, but there is basically no direct correlation between tax rates and GDP growth. The full explanation/rebuttal of the argument that says there is one is much more complicated but that's the basic underlying fact.

 

Cutting spending actually hurts GDP directly. Whether it's the right move to take or not, the reasons why are pretty obvious (for examples of this see Iceland, Ireland, other European countries that drastically slash spending).

[Balta1701]

Cutting spending actually hurts GDP directly. Whether it's the right move to take or not, the reasons why are pretty obvious (for examples of this see Iceland, Ireland, other European countries that drastically slash spending).

Raising taxes will hurt GDP as well. The actual damage though comes through the multipliers...some things hit GDP harder than others. There's a reason though why I keep saying no one should care about the short term deficit and everyone should care about economic growth. Until you're out of the hole we're in, if your cutbacks push more people out of work and the private sector can't make it up, then those people who are now out of work are no longer paying taxes, and they're no longer buying stuff. You're quite good on the Ireland/Greece examples and how badly their economies have broken under the austerity plans, and how the austerity plans have failed; because they backfire when the private sector can't make up for it.

[lostfan]

Yeah, that's why I didn't bother trying to cover the whole thing, 2K5 is going to come in here and argue strongly against what I just said.

[Balta1701]

I had a chart somewhere I can't find, but there is basically no direct correlation between tax rates and GDP growth. The full explanation/rebuttal of the argument that says there is one is much more complicated but that's the basic underlying fact.

 

Cutting spending actually hurts GDP directly. Whether it's the right move to take or not, the reasons why are pretty obvious (for examples of this see Iceland, Ireland, other European countries that drastically slash spending).

One thing that the communist hippies who are wrong about everything except for the fact that housing was a bubble have been noting this week, now that Ireland is on to austerity plan 2: electric boogallooo, is that Iceland actually took a different path than Ireland. Iceland stubbornly refused to gut its public sector, and instead worked to cut its currency value and refinance its debt, actually in some cases hurting the banks, while Ireland gutted its public sector and guaranteed that none of its banks would lose a cent. The employment shock in Iceland wound up significantly smaller than the one in Ireland, and Iceland appears on a path back towards solid economic growth, while no one seems to think that the latest Irish bailout is anything other than a delaying tactic until the next crisis spiral.

[Balta1701]

As usual, this is 53 votes in favor and 37 votes against. Which is a loss.

The first piece of legislation, which would have extended the Bush tax cuts for everyone making less than $250,000 per year, was defeated 53-36, falling seven votes shy of the 60 necessary to invoke cloture. Sens. Joe Manchin (D-WV), Russ Feingold (D-WI), Ben Nelson (D-NE), Jim Webb (D-VA) and Joe Lieberman (I-CT) joined all the Republicans in voting no. 11 senators, all Republicans, did not vote. The second bill, which would have extended the tax cuts for everyone making less than $1 million, was defeated 53-37.

 

You know what's really getting annying? Even the Liberal sites that I steal things from can't get the text right here. People making $25 million a year would still get a tax cut under the Democratic plan. The correct way to phrase it is "extended the Bush tax cuts on the first $250k of everyone's income".

[StrangeSox]

Hooray for our broken system of government!

 

If only the wealthiest Americans had some more money, then they'd create some jobs! Jobs to produce things there's currently no demand for, but hey, "if you build it, they will come!"

 

For some reason, the fact that the Republicans' claims are largely viewed as baseless and incoherent by the people who study this stuff doesn't get much play.

 

Buried in the NYT article:

Republicans insisted that allowing the tax rates to expire for the top two income brackets would amount to a big tax increase on small businesses, which generate many of the nation’s jobs — an assertion many economic and tax analysts say is largely baseless.

 

The assertion is based on the number of taxpayers who report nonwage income on their tax returns, but most such income does not come from what are generally regarded as small businesses.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/05/us/politics/05cong.html

 

Edited December 4, 2010 by StrangeSox

[Balta1701]

Hooray for our broken system of government!

Hell, I'm not sure that the failure of all of these would be a hugely bad thing, given the weak multiplier effect of tax increases, especially if they're directed upwards. It's just about as damaging over the next 6 months as failing to extend unemployment benefits.

 

And I'm still annoyed at the fact that "The Republicans are willing to have everyone's taxes go up if it means wall street millionaires don't get a tax cut" hasn't become a talking point.

[StrangeSox]

Regardless of whether it gives the desired outcome, the 60 vote hurdle to get anything done in the Senate is clearly breaking the legislative process.

[StrangeSox]

Hell, I'm not sure that the failure of all of these would be a hugely bad thing, given the weak multiplier effect of tax increases, especially if they're directed upwards. It's just about as damaging over the next 6 months as failing to extend unemployment benefits.

 

And I'm still annoyed at the fact that "The Republicans are willing to have everyone's taxes go up if it means wall street millionaires don't get a tax cut" hasn't become a talking point.

 

[the mainstream media is owned, run and reported on by millionaires]

[Balta1701]

[the mainstream media is owned, run and reported on by millionaires]

The other problem is...you can say the same thing about the majority of the 53 votes in favor as well.

[StrangeSox]

True enough.

 

Illinois' new Senator Mark Kirk said Democrats needed to listen to the voter's message last month and "not raise taxes and risk another recession.''

 

Yeah, the voter's message was "don't tax the rich at a slightly higher rate, equivalent to when the economy did really, really well!"