The Democrat Thread

[Balta1701]

Im not sure what you mean. The German hyperinflation was partially a result of massive borrowing during WWI while at the same time printing money...

 

Also im not sure if its relevant, but wasnt the US still on the gold standard? I believe Germany went off in 1914, to print more money and then never could get their act straight.

Not all massive borrowing is the same. Massive borrowing when there is huge sidelined capital is different from massive borrowing when there isnt'.

[Soxbadger]

The US had a huge amount of capital in the Great Depression?

 

(I really have no clue, I always thought hyperinflation was a risk in the US, but I could have been wrong.)

[Balta1701]

The US had a huge amount of capital in the Great Depression?

 

(I really have no clue, I always thought hyperinflation was a risk in the US, but I could have been wrong.)

There was a huge demand during the great depression for additional money. It was in effect a "flight to safety" just like we saw in 2008.

 

The difference in the depression is that Hoover and the Fed failed to increase the money supply in response, so the actual money supply became constrained and decreased significantly. (Side note, I'm putting this in terms that Friedman would like so that the Republicans don't get angry with me). The Great Depression was effectively a deflationary spiral...no one wanted to spend money, causing prices to drop, causing fewer people to want to spend money.

 

We avoided that in 2008-2009 by spending a ****ton of money. And it still hasn't been enough to overcome the flight to safety.

[StrangeSox]

Like the bill they passed containing $500 billion in medicare cuts. That was entirely to keep power.

 

You're not helping your cause.

[Balta1701]

You're not helping your cause.

(The $500 billion in medicare cuts expanded coverage to 30 million people and extracts those savings by making people healthier, but it was an open invitation to successful anti-Dem campaign ads. That bill has already saved lives.)

 

If the PPACA isn't an argument that the Dems passed the best policy they could get through and were willing to lose seats because of it, I don't know what is.

[StrangeSox]

It was the best policy they could get through because of Blue Dogs ie other Democrats. Do I need to quote Malcolm X again?

[Soxbadger]

Yeah seems that I should have refreshed my recollection on the US great depression instead of just going with my knowledge of Europe and assuming that the US was suffering similar problems.

[Soxbadger]

You can quote Malcolm X until the cows come home, but compromise is how a Republic runs.

 

Just because you believe something, doesnt mean that 90% of the US doesnt agree with you. So you can keep hoping that the 10% on your side are going to some how overpower the 90%, or you can try and give a little and get something for the 10% as opposed to getting nothing.

 

The best compromises are ones that everyone walks away believing they lost.

[Balta1701]

Yeah seems that I should have refreshed my recollection on the US great depression instead of just going with my knowledge of Europe and assuming that the US was suffering similar problems.

Remember, Hyperinflation in Germany hit in 1923. The Depression was a different beast.

[StrangeSox]

That doesn't really address the Democrats having supermajorities in both chambers and the White House and coming to the table with a heavy compromise (from a progressive perspective) and then further compromising from there.

[Balta1701]

It was the best policy they could get through because of Blue Dogs ie other Democrats. Do I need to quote Malcolm X again?

Then vote against those Democrats. That is actually a sensible tactical maneuver, especially if they are in states/districts that could swing more sharply blue if you can oust the blue dog.

 

Depending on who the opponent is, I won't complain if you're voting against a blue dog in the Senate/House. In that case, even in a 50/50 Senate for example, one vote can only do so much damage.

[Balta1701]

That doesn't really address the Democrats having supermajorities in both chambers and the White House and coming to the table with a heavy compromise (from a progressive perspective) and then further compromising from there.

On both of the Presidents biggest bills, the PPACA and the Stimulus...he got 60 59 and 62 votes.

 

You can tell me he made a tactical mistake in doing things like letting the Senate Budget committee debate rather than ignoring it, but that's a tactical difference/mistake, and you guys have been saying that your reason for voting against the President is philosophical.

[StrangeSox]

On both of the Presidents biggest bills, the PPACA and the Stimulus...he got 60 59 and 62 votes.

 

You can tell me he made a tactical mistake in doing things like letting the Senate Budget committee debate rather than ignoring it, but that's a tactical difference/mistake, and you guys have been saying that your reason for voting against the President is philosophical.

 

I believe I've cited ineptitude many times. How long was real, actual Universal Health Care in the discussion? How hard did he push for a massive stimulus and against tax cuts while having Democrat supermajorities? How hard did he push before coming to a compromise?

 

He didn't, at all. It's been the same story on issue after issue that I ostensibly agree with him on. Then you get to him being Bush Term 3 on plenty of the foreign/military/interrogation/detainees/unchecked-executive stuff, and that's reason enough for me not to vote for him.

[Soxbadger]

I understand the time line. Its just the German incident (imo) is the starting point for the entire economic period. You could actually argue that 1914 is the start, but I like to use the end of the war, because I think a lot of Germanys problems stemmed from the loser pays mentality after WWI, not to mention the crippling debt that Germany was already under to pay for the war. The stress just led to 0 confidence in Germany.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

You correctly fear a right-wing Republican getting into office and giving us Bush Redux. Why are only Republicans capable of enacting policies firmly away from the center? Why are the Democrats only capable of weak compromises?

[kapkomet]

What you're missing is that we actually gave a real life test to your proposal in 2000. Enough people voted for Ralph Nader to help GWB become President.

 

There are ZERO progressives who won from 2001-2007, and a whole lot who lost.

 

Conservatives win your end-game. Every time. And a whole lot more people die.

 

 

You just posted the real truth on Democrat thought. In fact, we should just close the thread now...

 

 

 

[Balta1701]

I understand the time line. Its just the German incident (imo) is the starting point for the entire economic period. You could actually argue that 1914 is the start, but I like to use the end of the war, because I think a lot of Germanys problems stemmed from the loser pays mentality after WWI, not to mention the crippling debt that Germany was already under to pay for the war. The stress just led to 0 confidence in Germany.

Prior to 1929, yeah, those were Germany's problems. The country was slowly starting to recover and the NSDAP was a local group of bar brawlers until the crash of 1929.

[HuskyCaucasian]

OMG! Obama was born in the US!! Here I thought all along that he wasnt.

White House Releases Obama's Birth Certificate

Edited April 27, 2011 by Athomeboy_2000

[Steve9347]

OMG! Obama was born in the US!! Here I thought all along that he wasnt.

White House Releases Obama's Birth Certificate

I love the official White House tweet and the annoyance it conveys:

 

Obama's long form birth certificate released so that America can move on to real issues that matter to our future http://goo.gl/fNmdR

[Jenksismyhero]

I still don't understand why they didn't provide a copy earlier, like a year ago earlier. I get that the WH didn't want to legitimize the issue, but after it became apparent that their refusal to come up with the certificate was leading to a decent amount of people (not just Republicans) questioning whether the speculation was true they should have produced it. As usual, the Dems are completely lousy at the PR game and have lost this battle. Trump gets to boast (wrongly of course) that he was the only one to force the WH to act and gained more support because of it. Obama meanwhile, gained nothing.

[Balta1701]

This is why they didn't bother.

[Steve9347]

This is why they didn't bother.

Yeah. I'd assumed this release would do nothing to stop those who claim he was not a natural citizen.

[StrangeSox]

Exactly.

 

Apropos article: The Science of Why We Don't Believe Science

 

Presenting logical, rational, well-supported arguments against someone who strongly believes in something is more likely to galvanize their beliefs than to change them. The brain sure is an interesting thing.

[HuskyCaucasian]

Yeah. I'd assumed this release would do nothing to stop those who claim he was not a natural citizen.

The birth certificate was signed by the doctor 4 days after his birth. Clearly he was quickly shuffled from another country into Hawaii by a group of Muslim extremists who forced a doctor at gun point to sign it, in hopes of one day rising him to power to lead the American Islam revolution!

[StrangeSox]

I still don't understand why they didn't provide a copy earlier, like a year ago earlier. I get that the WH didn't want to legitimize the issue, but after it became apparent that their refusal to come up with the certificate was leading to a decent amount of people (not just Republicans) questioning whether the speculation was true they should have produced it. As usual, the Dems are completely lousy at the PR game and have lost this battle. Trump gets to boast (wrongly of course) that he was the only one to force the WH to act and gained more support because of it. Obama meanwhile, gained nothing.

 

Strongly disagree. The overwhelming majority of people who buy into this are people who will never vote for Obama anyway. If the Republicans are going to spend their nomination season arguing amongst themselves over exactly how stupid you have to be to buy into this birther crap, then it means they're not actually mounting a challenge to Obama on the issues people who could be swayed from voting for him actually care about. Birthermania isn't going to increase Republican turnout or decrease Democrat turnout.