The Democrat Thread

[StrangeSox]

So we had gathered all this evidence and tracked a courier there, and we only were 80% certain. That doesn't prove any point about why the pakistanis should have known. I'm not saying they didn't. But I'm not so sure they were so obviously hiding that they knew his whereabouts.

 

Because he was down the street from their intelligence services in a city they tightly controlled? Because there's a decent amount of evidence of collusion with radical Islamists in the recent past?

 

I don't think the US would keep Pakistan completely in the dark and risk a huge incident (one of their planes attacking the helicopters) if they didn't have good reason not to trust them.

[Soxbadger]

Right but even if there was only 1 person in the Pakistana govt helping him, that 1 person knowing could have blown the entire operating.

 

There have been "spies" that have infiltrated the US govt before. If a known murderer was next to West Point but never did anything suspicious, why would he draw any attention? Im pretty sure the US military doesnt go door to door and enter houses just because its close to a military academy.

[StrangeSox]

Right but even if there was only 1 person in the Pakistana govt helping him, that 1 person knowing could have blown the entire operating.

 

There have been "spies" that have infiltrated the US govt before. If a known murderer was next to West Point but never did anything suspicious, why would he draw any attention? Im pretty sure the US military doesnt go door to door and enter houses just because its close to a military academy.

 

OBL was a little different than a "known" murderer.

 

And I've read that Pakistan was going door-to-door in that area. They're a quasi military dictatorship, ffs. They've professed time and time again to be helping the US, but it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. That doesn't mean 100% of the ISI is in bed with Al Qaeda or the Taliban, but that a significant portion is or at least turns a blind eye.

[Jenksismyhero]

Right but even if there was only 1 person in the Pakistana govt helping him, that 1 person knowing could have blown the entire operating.

 

There have been "spies" that have infiltrated the US govt before. If a known murderer was next to West Point but never did anything suspicious, why would he draw any attention? Im pretty sure the US military doesnt go door to door and enter houses just because its close to a military academy.

 

Dude you really gotta start using the quote feature because I can't tell who you're responding to and what position you have.

 

The bolded doesn't make sense because Pakistan DID go door to door and check ID's in that area. They should have known that this gigantic compound (protected by ex Pak military personnel) was of SOME kind of importance.

 

Unless this is your point...then I agree.

[Soxbadger]

This is to Strange Sox:

 

I agree with the last part. I just think the US should tread lightly here because Pakistan has sizable population and a nuclear weapon.

 

There were a lot of people who supported Osama in Pakistan, if you lay low and dont make noise, its hard for a govt to find you if they dont even know where to look.

 

(okay let me direct it so it makes sense)

 

To Jenks:

 

That was to the post directly above mine.

 

I was just saying that even if there was only 1 person helping Osama in the ISI as long as he was the right person, he could have deceived the govt pretty easily. Osama wasnt really doing anything in that compound, so if the report merely stated:

 

"Extremely conservative muslim family"

 

And they do nothing for the next 4-5 years, why are you going back?

 

 

Edited May 4, 2011 by Soxbadger

[StrangeSox]

I agree with the last part. I just think the US should tread lightly here because Pakistan has sizable population and a nuclear weapon.

 

There were a lot of people who supported Osama in Pakistan, if you lay low and dont make noise, its hard for a govt to find you if they dont even know where to look.

 

They already performed a covert military operation on foreign soil without approval or even notification.

 

Pakistan has a sizable population that isn't stupid enough to do something like threaten the US with nuclear weapons. It seems to me this was a very clear "clean up your own house" message from the US in all of this.

[Soxbadger]

Strange.

 

The mission you can explain away. I just would caution against the rhetoric that Pakistan knew, because while they may not do anything to the US directly, they certainly could help some group do something very bad to the US.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

This is to Strange Sox:

 

I was just saying that even if there was only 1 person helping Osama in the ISI as long as he was the right person, he could have deceived the govt pretty easily. Osama wasnt really doing anything in that compound, so if the report merely stated:

 

"Extremely conservative muslim family"

 

And they do nothing for the next 4-5 years, why are you going back?

 

Because the compound stuck out like a sore thumb. What other house in the area had 12-18 foot concrete walls topped with barbed wire and manned by guys with guns?

[Soxbadger]

I didnt think it was manned by armed guards, or at least thats the intelligence I read.

 

And while it does look suspicious to us as Westerners, you have to also think that there were thousands of Pakistani's who passed it every day and didnt even take notice of it either. I just have no real way of saying what I would have thought had I been Pakistani and living in that area.

 

It would be one thing if there are reports he was actively training people in the courtyard or something, but by all accounts he basically stayed inside all of the time and I just see no real reason why the Pakistani govt would have done a complete search of the house absent their being a cause to do it.

 

In retrospect its easy to put the pieces together.

[StrangeSox]

I didnt think it was manned by armed guards, or at least thats the intelligence I read.

 

There was a 40-minute fire fight.

 

And while it does look suspicious to us as Westerners, you have to also think that there were thousands of Pakistani's who passed it every day and didnt even take notice of it either. I just have no real way of saying what I would have thought had I been Pakistani and living in that area.

 

It would be one thing if there are reports he was actively training people in the courtyard or something, but by all accounts he basically stayed inside all of the time and I just see no real reason why the Pakistani govt would have done a complete search of the house absent their being a cause to do it.

 

In retrospect its easy to put the pieces together.

 

You've got a few choices, as I see it:

 

complete incompetence

indifference

active cooperation

 

they all look pretty terrible for Pakistan right now.

[southsider2k5]

There was a 40-minute fire fight.

 

 

 

You've got a few choices, as I see it:

 

complete incompetence

indifference

active cooperation

 

they all look pretty terrible for Pakistan right now.

 

There is no win for Pakistan in this scenario. The only other possibility is that they are lying their asses off to their people to keep them from thinking that they turned Bin Laden over in an attempt to prevent further reprisals.

[bmags]

There is no win for Pakistan in this scenario. The only other possibility is that they are lying their asses off to their people to keep them from thinking that they turned Bin Laden over in an attempt to prevent further reprisals.

 

True. But I'm not sure how much we should expect from pakistan. Their people DO NOT LIKE THE US yet their leaders at least comply with us and don't declare war on us while we do missile strikes into their country.

[Soxbadger]

The information is conflicting, so I dont know what to believe:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/0...en.raid/?hpt=T1

 

They were engaged in a firefight throughout the operation, he said.

 

There were no armed guards around the compound, according to a U.S. official who is not authorized to speak on the record.

 

As for the choices, I pick a different choice, I assume their intelligence is light years behind ours, I assume that there are some in the govt who are indifferent, I assume that there were some who may have cooperated and I assume there are others who wanted to capture Bin Laden.

 

But I think it will do nothing for the US, to throw accusations at Pakistan as a whole. Obviously we should have concerns about what is going on there, but I dont think baiting them with accusations will help our ability to get to the bottom of what is going on.

[southsider2k5]

The information is conflicting, so I dont know what to believe:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/0...en.raid/?hpt=T1

 

 

 

 

 

As for the choices, I pick a different choice, I assume their intelligence is light years behind ours, I assume that there are some in the govt who are indifferent, I assume that there were some who may have cooperated and I assume there are others who wanted to capture Bin Laden.

 

But I think it will do nothing for the US, to throw accusations at Pakistan as a whole. Obviously we should have concerns about what is going on there, but I dont think baiting them with accusations will help our ability to get to the bottom of what is going on.

 

The US government has been throwing Roses at their feet. It is the public and the media who are treating the Pak intelligence community like the White Sox offense.

[Soxbadger]

I agree that the US govt has been treating them with kid gloves, but there is a reason for it. I am saying that there is no reason for the US to escalate the rhetoric.

[Balta1701]

I agree that the US govt has been treating them with kid gloves, but there is a reason for it. I am saying that there is no reason for the US to escalate the rhetoric.

Yes, this is true. The Administration itself gains nothing from going hard against Pakistan in public. It could even hurt their position if Congress starts threatening to cut off funding.

[Balta1701]

Blackwater’s New Ethics Chief: John Ashcroft.

 

Let the Eagles soar!

[kapkomet]

Pakistan's going to get defunded. I'd like to thank them for my paycheck this year, since it will never happen again. Now we just have to go to India, Jordan, or some places like that.

[BigSqwert]

Sorry if this has been posted somewhere already. The Oriole's Luke Scott:

"(President Obama's) birth certificate has yet to be validated," Scott said. "If they can counterfeit $100 bills, I think it's a million times easier to counterfeit a birth certificate, if you ask me. So, all it is, let's just see if it's real. Anybody can produce a document, so let's check it out."

[DukeNukeEm]

ESPN did a feature on Luke Scott a few weeks ago. He did the whole "I was poor and I picked myself up by the bootstraps" routine, which I'm sure is fairly easy when you're blessed with enough baseball talent to play in the majors.

[Balta1701]

Come on press, someone ask him if he thinks the Osama killing is just to cover up the Birth Certificate...

[BigSqwert]

Obama Finally Tells Rambling Tom Vilsack To Shut The f*** Up During Cabinet Meeting

 

WASHINGTON—According to White House sources, Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack spent nearly 20 minutes of a cabinet meeting Tuesday rambling on about recent fluctuations in the price of corn before President Barack Obama finally told him to "shut the f*** up." "Look, Tom, I like you, I do, but we have some serious s*** to talk about here," said Obama, who during previous meetings of the executive branch's top officials has reportedly listened with patience to Vilsack's digressions before moving on to other subjects. "Seriously, how long do you expect a group of people to listen to one man talk about corn? I'm sick of it, and everyone else in this room is f***ing sick of it, and you need to shut the f*** up now." Sources confirmed Vilsack spent the rest of the day asking other cabinet members whether he was out of line or the president was just being a dick.

 

via

[Balta1701]

President Bush Reacts to Osama Bin Laden's Death with Will Ferrell from Will Ferrell

[Heads22]

via

 

heh

[Soxbadger]

Sounds like the Midwest is going to get some of the rail money Florida turned down.

 

Thanks Florida!