The Democrat Thread

[bmags]

This is for council, mayor, and clerk. Honestly I put more into the locals than I do the Presidential, because these are the people that affect my life more than anyone.

 

Perfect, I think simplifying it down to what we just did would increase participation.

[Balta1701]

It never ceases to amaze me how little voting is done in local elections. Our local primaries saw 4500 votes in a town of 30000.

The answer to this is stricter voter ID controls.

[southsider2k5]

The answer to this is stricter voter ID controls.

 

when it is 20% turnout, any fraud would have a much larger effect than at say 50%.

[Balta1701]

when it is 20% turnout, any fraud would have a much larger effect than at say 50%.

If you turn away all the black people poor people people who don't have the appropriate form of ID, then that makes the vote of the white person rich person person with the ID count more.

[southsider2k5]

If you turn away all the black people poor people people who don't have the appropriate form of ID, then that makes the vote of the white person rich person person with the ID count more.

 

Keep repeating it, too many people already accept it as the truth.

[Balta1701]

Keep repeating it, too many people already accept it as the truth.

Ok, I'll keep repeating untrue things. Voter ID laws are a necessary step to prevent voter fraud. Voter fraud is rampant in this country. Voter ID bills do not discriminate against African Americans or the poor. The Republican party wants to encourage minorities to vote and would never dare take steps to intimidate them away from their legal right to vote.

[Y2HH]

Ok, I'll keep repeating untrue things. Voter ID laws are a necessary step to prevent voter fraud. Voter fraud is rampant in this country. Voter ID bills do not discriminate against African Americans or the poor. The Republican party wants to encourage minorities to vote and would never dare take steps to intimidate them away from their legal right to vote.

 

Roll of the eyes.

[Balta1701]

Roll of the eyes.

That was kind of the point.

[southsider2k5]

Ok, I'll keep repeating untrue things. Voter ID laws are a necessary step to prevent voter fraud. Voter fraud is rampant in this country. Voter ID bills do not discriminate against African Americans or the poor. The Republican party wants to encourage minorities to vote and would never dare take steps to intimidate them away from their legal right to vote.

 

This is why these issues never go anywhere. A roadblock is instantly thrown up to prevent any real progress from being made.

[bmags]

This is why these issues never go anywhere. A roadblock is instantly thrown up to prevent any real progress from being made.

 

then prove it.

[southsider2k5]

then prove it.

 

This is why these issues never go anywhere. A roadblock is instantly thrown up to prevent any real progress from being made.

 

[bmags]

If you can't back up your claims with anything, then dont' tell me I'm a roadblock to discussion. I personally ahve had to look up and post actual court decisions and article backing up that these voter fraud cases have next to no success on anything other than voter registration fraud. And that voter registration fraud has not been found to contribute to actual voter count fraud. And numerous sources posting who these claims are always targeted at and who is always funding them. I've seen nothing from you other than the sentiment that "voter fraud is bad". So prove it.

[Balta1701]

However, it's extremely easy to find reports of actual voters turned away by the voter ID law.

A dozen nuns and an unknown number of students were turned away from polls Tuesday in the first use of Indiana's stringent voter ID law since it was upheld last week by the U.S. Supreme Court.

 

The nuns, all residents of a retirement home at Saint Mary's Convent near Notre Dame University, were denied ballots by a fellow sister and poll worker because the women, in their 80s and 90s, did not have valid Indiana photo ID cards.

[NorthSideSox72]

Voter fraud, in general, is not "rampant", I think we can all see that. But we can also all see that it does happen, in various forms.

 

So why is it bad to act on that?

 

The fear among some, many on the left, is that the poor or minorities will be unfairly disenfanchised. To me, that's not a useful argument, because it dismisses the fact that everyone no matter race or finances can easily vote.

 

So really, if people are asking for ID's, the fear boils down to, what if they have no ID? If ID's cost money or there are blockades to getting them that are beyond what is necessary to vote, then I agree that's an issue. But its really simply solved - if a state mandates ID must be shown to vote, then the state also needs to provide a way for all people who could be eligible to vote to obtain an ID of some kind free of charge. At that point, its not a poll tax, and the path is there for doing so, while you address some types of voter fraud. What is the problem with that?

 

Now I will say that I agree with many Dems who point out that its just as important to more thoroughly check voting machines for problems and fraud. I have argued before, all voting machines should record the vote electronically, then show a paper receipt with a voting ID on it - one copy for the voter showing that vote ID and elections, and one that goes in a bin for later random or full checking of the electronic versions.

 

[Balta1701]

So really, if people are asking for ID's, the fear boils down to, what if they have no ID? If ID's cost money or there are blockades to getting them that are beyond what is necessary to vote, then I agree that's an issue. But its really simply solved - if a state mandates ID must be shown to vote, then the state also needs to provide a way for all people who could be eligible to vote to obtain an ID of some kind free of charge. At that point, its not a poll tax, and the path is there for doing so, while you address some types of voter fraud. What is the problem with that?

The other problem is that it can be very difficult for people with incomplete documents, physical limitations, lack of transportation, or working-hour jobs to get ID. You can come up with a dozen other reasons.

 

The answer is not to make it easy for everyone to get an ID. The answer is to provide everyone with a valid ID, at state expense, if you want to institute one of those laws. Which also means hunting down the people who are difficult to find, at state expense. If the state is not proactively doing so, then the state is disenfranchising people.

[Balta1701]

Voter fraud, in general, is not "rampant", I think we can all see that. But we can also all see that it does happen, in various forms.

 

So why is it bad to act on that?

One other worthwhile point.

 

Gun crime is not, in general, rampant. I've never been victim of it. But we can all see that it does happen, in various forms. So why is it bad to require registration for everyone who owns a gun?

 

The response should, of course be..."well, gun crime is illegal. Why are we punishing people who are following the law for the actions of criminals?"

 

Voter fraud is illegal. When there are allegations of voter fraud, they are acted upon. Same story. Asking "Why is it bad to act on that" is the wrong question...the United States already does act on it by investigating it as a crime and arresting people if it happens (and it's a very, very, very difficult crime to get away with).

[southsider2k5]

The other problem is that it can be very difficult for people with incomplete documents, physical limitations, lack of transportation, or working-hour jobs to get ID. You can come up with a dozen other reasons.

 

The answer is not to make it easy for everyone to get an ID. The answer is to provide everyone with a valid ID, at state expense, if you want to institute one of those laws. Which also means hunting down the people who are difficult to find, at state expense. If the state is not proactively doing so, then the state is disenfranchising people.

 

The State of Indiana will provide people with an ID for voting purposes.

[NorthSideSox72]

The other problem is that it can be very difficult for people with incomplete documents, physical limitations, lack of transportation, or working-hour jobs to get ID. You can come up with a dozen other reasons.

 

The answer is not to make it easy for everyone to get an ID. The answer is to provide everyone with a valid ID, at state expense, if you want to institute one of those laws. Which also means hunting down the people who are difficult to find, at state expense. If the state is not proactively doing so, then the state is disenfranchising people.

I disagree on that aspect. You should not have togo hunt people down - its their right to vote, not mandatory. Also, there are federal laws concerning allowing for time off related to voting, AND, most state ID offices are not just open 10-4 M-F either. Even if they are, have some damn priorities. Finally, regarding those with physical limitations, that is an ADA accomodation issue of sorts, and I am sure most states have laws for making that work. If a person is physically unable to go into an ID office, then the same rules applied to voting for that person should apply to obtaining an ID.

 

Why is this made so complicated?

 

And GIVING everyone an ID would still require ESTABLISHING their identity, by the way. You are basically just making it so that the state has much more cost because of people's laziness or lack of priorities (again, exception for physically disabled, and I'm fine with setting up a system for that).

 

[Balta1701]

The State of Indiana will provide people with an ID for voting purposes.

But you will agree it has not done so already?

[southsider2k5]

One other worthwhile point.

 

Gun crime is not, in general, rampant. I've never been victim of it. But we can all see that it does happen, in various forms. So why is it bad to require registration for everyone who owns a gun?

 

The response should, of course be..."well, gun crime is illegal. Why are we punishing people who are following the law for the actions of criminals?"

 

Voter fraud is illegal. When there are allegations of voter fraud, they are acted upon. Same story. Asking "Why is it bad to act on that" is the wrong question...the United States already does act on it by investigating it as a crime and arresting people if it happens (and it's a very, very, very difficult crime to get away with).

 

Corporate Accounting Fraud isn't rampant, in fact we have had very, very few convictions of it. The fraud is illegal. Why not repeal the Sox requirements costing companies billions of dollars?

[southsider2k5]

But you will agree it has not done so already?

 

They have offered it for years.

[NorthSideSox72]

One other worthwhile point.

 

Gun crime is not, in general, rampant. I've never been victim of it. But we can all see that it does happen, in various forms. So why is it bad to require registration for everyone who owns a gun?

 

The response should, of course be..."well, gun crime is illegal. Why are we punishing people who are following the law for the actions of criminals?"

 

Voter fraud is illegal. When there are allegations of voter fraud, they are acted upon. Same story. Asking "Why is it bad to act on that" is the wrong question...the United States already does act on it by investigating it as a crime and arresting people if it happens (and it's a very, very, very difficult crime to get away with).

This is why its fully understandable to, again, establish identification for purchasing guns. But that is not at all the same as registration of those guns, which guts the heart of 2A.

 

[Balta1701]

Corporate Accounting Fraud isn't rampant, in fact we have had very, very few convictions of it. The fraud is illegal. Why not repeal the Sox requirements costing companies billions of dollars?

Oh, ok, thank you for coming out in favor of registration for gun owners. I'm surprised you'd be willing to go that far.

[BigSqwert]

Corporate Accounting Fraud isn't rampant, in fact we have had very, very few convictions of it. The fraud is illegal. Why not repeal the Sox requirements costing companies billions of dollars?

The impact of corporate fraud is a greater risk. We all know what happens when corporations are not regulated properly.

[southsider2k5]

The impact of corporate fraud is a greater risk. We all know what happens when corporations are not regulated properly.

 

As opposed to an illegal coup of the country?