The Democrat Thread

[southsider2k5]

I thought you guys were down with LGBT rights?

 

I am, but I hate fighting stereotypes and ignorance with more stereotypes and ignorance. Telling people who have a religious objection to being gay that they are in favor of people having their heads bashed in doesn't help anything.

[StrangeSox]

I am, but I hate fighting stereotypes and ignorance with more stereotypes and ignorance. Telling people who have a religious objection to being gay that they are in favor of people having their heads bashed in doesn't help anything.

 

Well good thing that wasn't the message on all but one (sorta) of those signs?!

[southsider2k5]

Well good thing that wasn't the message on all but one (sorta) of those signs?!

 

If you actually practice the love that is in the bible, pretty much all of those would be taboo.

[StrangeSox]

If you actually practice the love that is in the bible, pretty much all of those would be taboo.

But plenty of people who choose to focus on a few lines in Leviticus clearly don't get the same message as you do, so why are you offended when they're called out for the consequences of their bigotry?

 

My brother's boyfriend just had to leave his home in the middle of the night because his ultra-conservative-religious family found out he was gay and were going to send him to a "pray away the gay" camp. They were also having him pray 5 hours a day to remove his sin, made him move home from college and cut off communication with everyone (took phone and computer).

 

His story isn't particularly unique, unfortunately. That's why it isn't an oversimplification to say that those who oppose LGBT rights enable if not more typically advocate for this sort of treatment. That's why its pretty terrible to dismiss real-world suffering with "masturbation kills kittens." Because real people get really hurt, physically and emotionally. They lose friends and their family cuts them out of their lives. They can be fired for being LGBT without recourse. They aren't treated equally in the eyes of the law in a majority of states. They're beaten up and teased and ostracized as children. They're driven to suicide. They're murdered.

 

The quicker this sort of bigotry is gone, the better our society will be. These are the real consequences of it.

Edited May 16, 2012 by StrangeSox

[southsider2k5]

But plenty of people who choose to focus on a few lines in Leviticus clearly don't get the same message as you do, so why are you offended when they're called out for the consequences of their bigotry?

 

My brother's boyfriend just had to leave his home in the middle of the night because his ultra-conservative-religious family found out he was gay and were going to send him to a "pray away the gay" camp. They were also having him pray 5 hours a day to remove his sin, made him move home from college and cut off communication with everyone (took phone and computer).

 

His story isn't particularly unique, unfortunately. That's why it isn't an oversimplification to say that those who oppose LGBT rights enable if not more typically advocate for this sort of treatment. That's why its pretty terrible to dismiss real-world suffering with "masturbation kills kittens." Because real people get really hurt, physically and emotionally. They lose friends and their family cuts them out of their lives. They can be fired for being LGBT without recourse. They aren't treated equally in the eyes of the law in a majority of states. They're beaten up and teased and ostracized as children. They're driven to suicide. They're murdered.

 

The quicker this sort of bigotry is gone, the better our society will be. These are the real consequences of it.

 

Fighting stereotypes with more stereotypes isn't going to change anything. There are consequences for this both ways. Actions like this don't bridge any gaps, instead only reinforcing them.

[Jenksismyhero]

I'm guessing he is laughing at the extreme over simplification and misleading representation of the issue.

 

Yes.

 

I'm all about equal rights here, but that includes a persons right to think homosexuality is wrong and a sin and whatever follows from that. I don't think having that viewpoint means that you accept fear/violence/suicide as acceptable reactions to that belief.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

I mean, to me, his insulting dismissal of the very real problems many LGBT face displayed on those signs as equivalent to "masturbation kills kittens" seems like a pretty good illustration of the message of that pic.

 

Both hostility and indifference enable that sort of treatment.

 

That's pretty much exactly what you're doing. "Anyone who doesn't agree with me is 100% ok with X, Y and Z."

[StrangeSox]

Anyone who is against LGBT rights is ok with LGBT people being treated as less-than-equal. That's sort of the definition of "against rights"

[Jenksismyhero]

Anyone who is against LGBT rights is ok with LGBT people being treated as less-than-equal. That's sort of the definition of "against rights"

 

But you're equating "everyone who thinks LGBT people are living in sin/wrong" with "everyone who thinks LGBT people shouldn't be given equal rights." One does not necessarily lead to the other.

[StrangeSox]

Yes.

 

I'm all about equal rights here, but that includes a persons right to think homosexuality is wrong and a sin and whatever follows from that. I don't think having that viewpoint means that you accept fear/violence/suicide as acceptable reactions to that belief.

 

Equal rights and free speech aren't the same thing, but I agree 100% that people have the right to be homophobic, just as they have the right to be antisemitic or racist or any other sort of bigot. That doesn't mean you can't work to change those mindsets and eliminate hateful ideology, though.

 

These are still the real consequences of opposing LGBT rights regardless of one's personal approval of these consequences.

[StrangeSox]

But you're equating "everyone who thinks LGBT people are living in sin/wrong" with "everyone who thinks LGBT people shouldn't be given equal rights." One does not necessarily lead to the other.

 

How so? The pic you responded to with kitten masturbation jokes specifically says "against LGBT rights."

[southsider2k5]

Equal rights and free speech aren't the same thing, but I agree 100% that people have the right to be homophobic, just as they have the right to be antisemitic or racist or any other sort of bigot. That doesn't mean you can't work to change those mindsets and eliminate hateful ideology, though.

 

These are still the real consequences of opposing LGBT rights regardless of one's personal approval of these consequences.

 

This just offers more hateful ideology.

[StrangeSox]

Fighting stereotypes with more stereotypes isn't going to change anything. There are consequences for this both ways. Actions like this don't bridge any gaps, instead only reinforcing them.

 

Actions like what? Posting an image on a message board in a forum a handful of people frequent?

 

I'm not sure how many gaps were bridged during the 60's civil rights fight vs. shaming bigots into the margins. This picture is humorous:

 

 

but it sort of masks an important issue, which is that those people who look really stupid 40 years on generally didn't repudiate their beliefs, they just stopped being vocal about their racism as society changed around them and younger generations grew up without having it embedded so much in the culture.

[southsider2k5]

Actions like what? Posting an image on a message board in a forum a handful of people frequent?

 

I'm not sure how many gaps were bridged during the 60's civil rights fight vs. shaming bigots into the margins. This picture is humorous:

 

 

but it sort of masks an important issue, which is that those people who look really stupid 40 years on generally didn't repudiate their beliefs, they just stopped being vocal about their racism as society changed around them and younger generations grew up without having it embedded so much in the culture.

 

Hate begets hate, in all forms.

[StrangeSox]

This just offers more hateful ideology.

 

It isn't hateful or intolerant to oppose and work to eliminate hatred and intolerance.

[southsider2k5]

It isn't hateful or intolerant to oppose and work to eliminate hatred and intolerance.

 

It is if you use hate and intolerance to do it.

[Jenksismyhero]

Equal rights and free speech aren't the same thing, but I agree 100% that people have the right to be homophobic, just as they have the right to be antisemitic or racist or any other sort of bigot. That doesn't mean you can't work to change those mindsets and eliminate hateful ideology, though.

 

These are still the real consequences of opposing LGBT rights regardless of one's personal approval of these consequences.

 

I don't think by telling those people that believing they way they do means they accept violence or whatever is the best way to go about that. Because, frankly, that's just not true, hence the masturbation joke. You're trying to shame those people for what they think by placing the blame on them for what other more extreme people think (or do). It's perfectly logical and acceptable for me to think homosexuality is wrong, that it's a sin, but that in this world we live in, in this society we live in, it's not my place to deny that person the right to be married or visit their partner in the hospital or whatever. Having that belief doesn't fuel hatred or violence anymore than me not liking Cubs fans fuels hatred or violence by moronic Sox fans over two weekends of the year.

[StrangeSox]

Hate begets hate, in all forms.

 

This is just some silly solipsism to provide cover for the continued existence of bigotry. Showing society what opposing LGBT rights really means is an effective way to marginalize these beliefs

[StrangeSox]

It is if you use hate and intolerance to do it.

 

What is hateful or intolerant about the image I posted?

[southsider2k5]

What is hateful or intolerant about the image I posted?

 

Categorizing all people as supporting all of those items if they don't agree with you.

[StrangeSox]

I don't think by telling those people that believing they way they do means they accept violence or whatever is the best way to go about that. Because, frankly, that's just not true, hence the masturbation joke. You're trying to shame those people for what they think by placing the blame on them for what other more extreme people think (or do). It's perfectly logical and acceptable for me to think homosexuality is wrong, that it's a sin, but that in this world we live in, in this society we live in, it's not my place to deny that person the right to be married or visit their partner in the hospital or whatever. Having that belief doesn't fuel hatred or violence anymore than me not liking Cubs fans fuels hatred or violence by moronic Sox fans over two weekends of the year.

 

So, since you don't oppose LGBT rights, the image isn't directed at you. Why take offense?

 

I do object to your phrasing that implies you don't think it's right to deny them their rights because of the society we live in. It's not right to deny people their rights regardless of the society you live in.

[southsider2k5]

This is just some silly solipsism to provide cover for the continued existence of bigotry. Showing society what opposing LGBT rights really means is an effective way to marginalize these beliefs

 

And going the extra step of accusing everyone of being in favor of them is ignorant.

[StrangeSox]

Categorizing all people as supporting all of those items if they don't agree with you.

 

Opposing LGBT rights leads to those things because LGBT people remain second-class citizens who it is ok to discriminate against. It is de facto support.

[southsider2k5]

Opposing LGBT rights leads to those things because LGBT people remain second-class citizens who it is ok to discriminate against. It is de facto support.

 

Which means you must be in favor of hate crimes against religions. Because you are doing the same thing in supporting stereotypes and intolerance of them. It isn't direct support, but de facto support. It does work both ways. You can't protest the results of these type of actions, by taking the exact same sort of actions.

[StrangeSox]

See that's not a workable equivalent because I 100% support religious freedom and religious rights and would be against efforts to legally restrict them.

 

Whereas if you oppose LGBT rights, you are preventing equal treatment under the law. You are promoting discrimination. You are legitimizing these sorts of actions.