The Democrat Thread

[bmags]

They made these rules out of protectionism, and it drives prices up, not down. While these examples are all anecdotal, most people who work in an office that has union and non-union employees has experienced something like this. Again, these types of practices drive prices up via a form of forced non-competition. It's bulls***. And it's why I hate MOST modern unions.

 

Here is another example -- in the City of Chicago -- any underground piping is supposed to be clay tile, as if this was 1930. Not PVC...and why? Because PVC is airtight, and lasts almost forever. Clay tile, however, leaks, breaks, can be invaded by tree roots, and is outdated technology they force you to use in a legal sense BECAUSE it protects the fact that they'll be necessary to fix it in the future. This type of protectionism is f***ing bulls***. And no union member on this board will ever convince me otherwise.

 

Which raises the price of city projects, making municipal works sky high.

[HuskyCaucasian]

Every building downtown requires union workers, from electricians to movers. It's pathetic. When my firm moved offices, we needed to install an electric card thingy for the door to unlock it. The job took 4 hours with about 4 people. To run on electrical wire and hook it up. The grand cost? 3,000 bucks. That's the problem with unions and why the majority of Americans think they're bogus. We should have been able to hire a one-man electrician owning his own business that would have gotten the job done in an hour and charged a couple hundred bucks tops.

This is why a lot of trade show are going to places like Orlando, they dot have to deal with over the top unions. (Didnt Chicago/Illinois recently change the union rules for McCormick Place?)

[HuskyCaucasian]

Unions get reflexively blamed for everything any time something goes wrong. Ignoring the fact that there's 2 sides in negotiations. It's always the union. What happened is irrelevant, the union should've taken whatever s***ty deal was offered no matter how bad it was and be grateful anybody wanted to employ them.

Too often, in my opinion, they get TOO powerful and think they deserver more than they do.

[southsider2k5]

This is why a lot of trade show are going to places like Orlando, they dot have to deal with over the top unions. (Didnt Chicago/Illinois recently change the union rules for McCormick Place?)

 

There and Las Vegas.

[bmags]

There and Las Vegas.

 

which is why las vegas is BOOMING.

 

Trade shows are horrendously overrated for how much money they bring in.

[Balta1701]

which is why las vegas is BOOMING.

 

Trade shows are horrendously overrated for how much money they bring in.

They don't want the Geological Society back because we didn't gamble enough.

[HuskyCaucasian]

They don't want the Geological Society back because we didn't gamble enough.

There's a joke there somewhere... I just havent figured it out yet

[Balta1701]

There's a joke there somewhere... I just havent figured it out yet

Neither have we.

[Harry Chappas]

Neither have we.

 

To quote hawk Harrelson, Geologists don't have the stones to gamble

[bmags]

yeesh.

[southsider2k5]

To quote hawk Harrelson, Geologists don't have the stones to gamble

 

But on the bright side for the strippers, they do love to get their rocks off.

[HuskyCaucasian]

To quote hawk Harrelson, Geologists don't have the stones to gamble

Winner winner chicken dinner! (see what I did there? #blackjack)

[lostfan]

There's good unions... There's bad unions. Theres unions that are just there. There's not "unions." Even similar unions facing similar labor situations aren't really the same. Example is the NFLPA and NBAPA. The owners pretty much tried to f*** the NFL players hard and fast. The nba owners (who are full of s*** too) were dealing with the players who have NO IDEA how sweet they have it, but they can't fix their broken system and accomplished nothing.

[lostfan]

Fun with the conservative fantasy land, blast from the past

 

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2...tax-relief-plan

 

Spoiler alert: not a single one of those things happened (granted, I skimmed it) even if you use 9/11 and the wars as an excuse, which would be a terrible excuse because no civilization in history ever cut taxes before going to war.

[Balta1701]

Anywho, I just finished up the paper I needed to review, so time for a good rant.

 

I like how it's just reflexively "Unions" why conventions might go to Orlando and Las Vegas. Yup, Unions. No consideration is given, of course, to the fact that those 2 cities have substantial hotel advantages, produced in one case through the fact that one has a clear on-season and an off-season for tourism, which would generate a substantial portion of the year when hotels aren't booked solid and could be available cheaply...and the other which winds up having the price of the hotels subsidized through the fact that the non-geologists blow money in the city. On top of that, Chicago proper has only about 30k hotel rooms according to its olympics application (100k in the metro area), whereas Vegas you're talking 150k just in the city.

 

Chicago doesn't have those advantages. When you host a convention in Chicago, you're not hosting a convention in a place you can go to cheaply, you're hosting a convention there because you want access to the Chicago market and you want to somehow take advantage of that market.

 

That of course, is all the fault of the unions.

 

And re: the electrician. Now, I'm willing to grant that Chicago is unusually corrupt and there's probably a backroom deal or 17 signed somewhere along the line to grease the skids...but on the other side can anyone think of a reason why a large major city might want to have some decently high quality regulation and training of the people who are allowed to do even small electrical projects in the city? Yes, it's going to raise the costs. But the city also has a keen interest in the stability of its own electrical systems, and also has a huge interest in electrical safety, as fires in an urban environment are hugely threatening to lives and property. And Chicago just happens to have a small history involving fire. Not to mention other elemental extremes.

 

So yes, Chicago is probably particularly corrupt and I'd be happy to discuss how specific elements of deregulation could help improve the city's economy...but don't tell me that the city ought to allow just any contractor to work on the electrical systems in the city. A city ought to make sure that people who are doing electrical work in the downtown area are certified on their local systems and do double and triple checks and follow city-wide standardized procedures to the letter. And yes, that is a burdensome regulation that costs businesses substantial amounts of money...but fire does too. And blackouts do too.

 

Oh, and one more...in one of my less exciting excursions through someone's anti-union story, here's the actual regulations from the City of Chicago regarding the use of PVC pipe:

No plastic pipe may be used for any underground sewer or drain inside or outside the property,

except as specifically allowed by the Municipal Code of Chicago. The Municipal Code of

Chicago, Section 18-29-702.3 and 18-29-1102.5, Subsoil Drain Pipe, allows (1) PVC pipe -

ASTM D2729 (type Sewer Pipe, PS25, PS50 and PS100); or (2) PVC perforated subsurface

drain pipe, ASTM F 891 with an encasement of non-woven filter fabric filled with CA-7 (filter

fabric shall have a clearance of 4 inches minimum from the outside of the perforated pipe),

ASTM D 3034, SDR 35 (4 inch to 15 inch). No corrugated pipe is allowed.

So, the City does allow PVC pipes. For the very largest pipe sizes, >24 inch, you are correct that clay is required, but this is not unusual for the largest drains, and frankly, after going through the regulations for other states, Chicago's piping regulations aren't unusually stringent (and it's also not like Chicago has had any sort of recent memory issue with pipes bursting and floods). Crumbling, old clay pipes...that can certainly be an issue...but now we're talking about an issue of lack of upkeep and trying to make a 50 year system last 150 years, like we do with so many other bits of our infrastructure in this country.

[Y2HH]

Anywho, I just finished up the paper I needed to review, so time for a good rant.

 

I like how it's just reflexively "Unions" why conventions might go to Orlando and Las Vegas. Yup, Unions. No consideration is given, of course, to the fact that those 2 cities have substantial hotel advantages, produced in one case through the fact that one has a clear on-season and an off-season for tourism, which would generate a substantial portion of the year when hotels aren't booked solid and could be available cheaply...and the other which winds up having the price of the hotels subsidized through the fact that the non-geologists blow money in the city. On top of that, Chicago proper has only about 30k hotel rooms according to its olympics application (100k in the metro area), whereas Vegas you're talking 150k just in the city.

 

Chicago doesn't have those advantages. When you host a convention in Chicago, you're not hosting a convention in a place you can go to cheaply, you're hosting a convention there because you want access to the Chicago market and you want to somehow take advantage of that market.

 

That of course, is all the fault of the unions.

 

And re: the electrician. Now, I'm willing to grant that Chicago is unusually corrupt and there's probably a backroom deal or 17 signed somewhere along the line to grease the skids...but on the other side can anyone think of a reason why a large major city might want to have some decently high quality regulation and training of the people who are allowed to do even small electrical projects in the city? Yes, it's going to raise the costs. But the city also has a keen interest in the stability of its own electrical systems, and also has a huge interest in electrical safety, as fires in an urban environment are hugely threatening to lives and property. And Chicago just happens to have a small history involving fire. Not to mention other elemental extremes.

 

So yes, Chicago is probably particularly corrupt and I'd be happy to discuss how specific elements of deregulation could help improve the city's economy...but don't tell me that the city ought to allow just any contractor to work on the electrical systems in the city. A city ought to make sure that people who are doing electrical work in the downtown area are certified on their local systems and do double and triple checks and follow city-wide standardized procedures to the letter. And yes, that is a burdensome regulation that costs businesses substantial amounts of money...but fire does too. And blackouts do too.

 

Oh, and one more...in one of my less exciting excursions through someone's anti-union story, here's the actual regulations from the City of Chicago regarding the use of PVC pipe:

So, the City does allow PVC pipes. For the very largest pipe sizes, >24 inch, you are correct that clay is required, but this is not unusual for the largest drains, and frankly, after going through the regulations for other states, Chicago's piping regulations aren't unusually stringent (and it's also not like Chicago has had any sort of recent memory issue with pipes bursting and floods). Crumbling, old clay pipes...that can certainly be an issue...but now we're talking about an issue of lack of upkeep and trying to make a 50 year system last 150 years, like we do with so many other bits of our infrastructure in this country.

 

I disagree with your points for a few reasons...

 

Now it's my turn to rant against your rant.

 

1) Those piping regulations are pure protectionism. Period. And reading those regulations, they hardly make sense to anyone that isn't a lawyer, and they word them like that on purpose. I'll take your word for it when you say the city allows PVC for smaller pipes, but that's pretty meaningless, since people can just as easily use copper for those (like I did). The big pipes are the pipes you WANT to be PVC, not clay...these are the pipes that almost always cause drain/sewer problems for various reasons, most of which because they can crack/break/crumble and require multiple repairs far before 50 years. PVC is also much harder to clog, because there are less "elbows/connections" involved. Most of these repairs shouldn't be necessary, and PVC would make them stronger, last longer, and stay cleaner. But I guess union sewer guys need job protection! Clay sucks in comparison to PVC for any size drain, in every regard.

 

2) The unions DID, in fact, cause the conventions to flee Chicago, as this was once a huge area for conventions, including CES,...Las Vegas didn't just suddenly become "hotel heavy" in the last 20 years, so the hotel/space excuse doesn't even make sense. Las Vegas always had the hotels. Las Vegas always had the gambling. I'm pointing this out because you seem to be ignoring it for the sake of making a point that Las Vegas is more attractive because of things they've always offered. The fact is, Chicago has become less attractive because of how expensive it is to have a convention here, not because there are no hotels. When you want to have a convention and you need 10 electricians, but the contract requires you have hire and pay 50, even if you don't need nearly that many...well, that's the problem. The problem is not, however, hotel space.

 

3) Union workers were, at one time, said to be more trained and experienced than non union workers...and the Union name/brand was somewhat of an assurance to quality work. This no longer applies. Union work is often shoddier than non union work these days...anyone that's ever dealt with a contractor or having a home built could tell you this. Yes, there are union members that are just as experienced and offer just as high quality work, but it's no longer something the brand name carries with it. While it was once synonymous with quality, it no longer is. Now it's just synonymous with the fact you'll be paying way more for the same quality you could get elsewhere.

 

And no, I'm not saying all unions are the same, or that all unions are bad. I'm saying that over time, a lot of this negative attitude toward unions was created by and brought upon themselves. You may be right about Chicago, though, as it's the only City I have experience with unions in...perhaps things are far better with unions elsewhere. When I'm talking about them, I'm talking specifically about Chicago.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Y2HH

[Balta1701]

I think I can literally stop reading when you say that Las Vegas didn't become "Hotel heavy" over the past 20 years. 20 years ago the Mirage opened. Since that time, basically the entire strip has been rebuilt, massively increasing the availability of hotel rooms...and oh yeah, the LV convention center underwent a major renovation to expand space in 1990, and another in 1998.

[Y2HH]

I think I can literally stop reading when you say that Las Vegas didn't become "Hotel heavy" over the past 20 years. 20 years ago the Mirage opened. Since that time, basically the entire strip has been rebuilt, massively increasing the availability of hotel rooms...and oh yeah, the LV convention center underwent a major renovation to expand space in 1990, and another in 1998.

 

Again, 20 years ago Vegas was still hotel heavy, before it was rebuilt, before the Mirage. So again, your point is rendered moot.

 

Even allowing you to make this ridiculous point. Chicago was a booming convention town as little as 10 years ago. So, what exactly happened in the past 10 years? Vegas was already rebuilt...Vegas already had huge convention centers...but people continued coming here. Why? And why did they suddenly stop in the 2000's? Did they suddenly realize Vegas had hotel rooms?

 

You're ridiculous.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Y2HH

[Balta1701]

Again, 20 years ago Vegas was still hotel heavy, before it was rebuilt, before the Mirage. So again, your point is rendered moot.

When the point is "you guys will reflexively blame unions for everything you don't like and find a way to look past every other economic reality", I think your saying that Las Vegas hasn't improved as a convention destination massively in the past 20 years and ignoring the fact that it has 5x the number of hotel rooms available as chicago pretty well illustrates it.

[Balta1701]

Even allowing you to make this ridiculous point. Chicago was a booming convention town as little as 10 years ago. So, what exactly happened in the past 10 years? Vegas was already rebuilt...Vegas already had huge convention centers...but people continued coming here. Why? And why did they suddenly stop in the 2000's? Did they suddenly realize Vegas had hotel rooms?

 

You're ridiculous.

So wait, the Unions in Chicago had no power 10 years ago and they gained all that power in 10 years to sabotage the convention industry? Well that's straight amazing.

[Y2HH]

When the point is "you guys will reflexively blame unions for everything you don't like and find a way to look past every other economic reality", I think your saying that Las Vegas hasn't improved as a convention destination massively in the past 20 years and ignoring the fact that it has 5x the number of hotel rooms available as chicago pretty well illustrates it.

 

The flee from Chicago convention centers didn't happen until the mid 2000s.

 

Also, I'm not saying you don't have a point, you do...Vegas could have simply priced Chicago out with their new availability...but that said, it wasn't hard to price Chicago out when they require you to hire a certain number of electricians, plumbers, etc...when your actual requirements are far less than they force you to hire. This is, again, what protectionism gets you.

[Y2HH]

So wait, the Unions in Chicago had no power 10 years ago and they gained all that power in 10 years to sabotage the convention industry? Well that's straight amazing.

 

Not what I said at all...but you raise an interesting point.

 

It shows that unions don't want to compete...and they're purpose has become to drive prices up, not down. It's not that Chicago unions gained some sort of mystical power in the past 10 years, what it does, however, is show they're oblivious to reality. Why should their lower their prices? That attitude that they won't lose business no matter what is what happened to Chicago conventions.

[StrangeSox]

f*** unions for not eagerly joining the race to the bottom

[Balta1701]

The flee from Chicago convention centers didn't happen until the mid 2000s.

 

Also, I'm not saying you don't have a point, you do...Vegas could have simply priced Chicago out with their new availability...but that said, it wasn't hard to price Chicago out when they require you to hire a certain number of electricians, plumbers, etc...when your actual requirements are far less than they force you to hire. This is, again, what protectionism gets you.

And it's also much easier to price Chicago out when Chicago has 30k hotel rooms and Vegas has 100k+ hotel rooms, with more tourism seasonality, gambling supplements, and strip level nightlife/entertainment...all of which have improved over the last decade at the same time as you're saying the Chicago Convention market dried up.

[Y2HH]

The point you and other union lovers are ignoring here is this.

 

Orlando and Vegas became price competitive. They went out of their way to create availability and lower prices to attract conventions, because they realize the business it generates outside of the convention itself...

 

...and what did Chicago do? Raised it's prices. Raised it's requirements as to how many people you have to staff, etc. Rather than trying to compete, they actually went against the grain and added incentives to NOT have conventions here.

 

It was a smart tactic.

 

Only it was dumb.