The Democrat Thread

[DukeNukeEm]

Another huge win for California gun laws! Cant blame this one on Indiana being a next-door neighbor.

Edited January 11, 2013 by DukeNukeEm

[Balta1701]

Another huge win for California gun laws! Cant blame this one on Indiana being a next-door neighbor.

California has also cut more than $800 million out of its mental health services budgets since the economic collapse, in no small part to avoid significant tax increases.

[Jake]

California has also cut more than $800 million out of its mental health services budgets since the economic collapse, in no small part to avoid significant tax increases.

 

The mentally ill should get jobs and buy their own mental healthcare. Also, poverty is a mental illness.

[BigSqwert]

The mentally ill should get jobs and buy their own mental healthcare. Also, poverty is a mental illness.

[bmags]

Ahoy comrades, what government rations should we shove down the gullets of our subjugated peasants today?

[StrangeSox]

Food for the proles? Surely you jest, brother!

[bmags]

True, they have been too fat and lazy recently. A little starvation will toughen them up, and they can use their leathery skin to make boot straps out of, and then raise themselves from poverty (LOL)

[southsider2k5]

Ahoy comrades, what government rations should we shove down the gullets of our subjugated peasants today?

 

After all, they aren't nearly smart enough to decide on their own. We have to decide for them.

[StrangeSox]

That's a good conclusion to draw, especially after several longish posts about the perils of cultural imperialism and outsiders telling a community/group/culture/etc. they know best.

 

What's sad is that I think you honestly believe that a discussion about privileges really is racist and really is saying some group or another is dumb and inherently inferior.

[southsider2k5]

That's a good conclusion to draw, especially after several longish posts about the perils of cultural imperialism and outsiders telling a community/group/culture/etc. they know best.

 

What's sad is that I think you honestly believe that a discussion about privileges really is racist and really is saying some group or another is dumb and inherently inferior.

 

What's sad is you don't. You think it is a perfectly natural conclusion.

[StrangeSox]

No, I think you really don't understand what's being said and what you're reading into it isn't what anyone else is actually saying.

 

Noting that someone who grows up in a community or family where few people if any have gone to college is going to have a harder time navigating applications/student loans than someone who grew up in a family with lots of college graduates isn't making a judgement on any individuals or their inherent or innate abilities. It's understanding that things are easier with familiarity and help and reinforcement, and that someone who grows up with that help and reinforcement likely doesn't recognize the privileges they've benefited from. Likewise, I don't have any entrepreneurs in my family. If I wanted to start my own business, I'd be starting at square one without someone I know to turn to. Someone who grew up in a family that had entrepreneurs wouldn't be starting from square one, and they may have the value that starting your own business is a good and desirable thing ingrained to them throughout the upbringing. There's no moral judgement here, no statement or implication that one person is actually inferior to another.

 

It isn't limited to race or economic class, either, but between any majority 'norm' group and an outside group-religious, gender, sexuality and more.

 

Now, can you actually explain what's supposed to be racist about that? Where anyone is calling someone else dumb?

[bmags]

Nonetheless, we were all just taking the piss until larry literal came in to try and act all high and mighty.

[southsider2k5]

No, I think you really don't understand what's being said and what you're reading into it isn't what anyone else is actually saying.

 

Noting that someone who grows up in a community or family where few people if any have gone to college is going to have a harder time navigating applications/student loans than someone who grew up in a family with lots of college graduates isn't making a judgement on any individuals or their inherent or innate abilities. It's understanding that things are easier with familiarity and help and reinforcement, and that someone who grows up with that help and reinforcement likely doesn't recognize the privileges they've benefited from. Likewise, I don't have any entrepreneurs in my family. If I wanted to start my own business, I'd be starting at square one without someone I know to turn to. Someone who grew up in a family that had entrepreneurs wouldn't be starting from square one, and they may have the value that starting your own business is a good and desirable thing ingrained to them throughout the upbringing. There's no moral judgement here, no statement or implication that one person is actually inferior to another.

 

It isn't limited to race or economic class, either, but between any majority 'norm' group and an outside group-religious, gender, sexuality and more.

 

Now, can you actually explain what's supposed to be racist about that? Where anyone is calling someone else dumb?

 

What I am is understanding is that I am being told there is some large cultural/ethnic/class/race problem when it comes to eating. And even if you told these groups what the problem was, they wouldn't either get it or care, because in some way they are too inferior to be able to understand or care in a way that would make them change their behavior.

 

Nope, doesn't sound racist at all. Especially not when if you changed eating to say education or crime, how it would be taken

[StrangeSox]

Then you are plainly misunderstanding.

 

Can you lay out a more detailed argument to back up those conclusions or readings of my posts?

[StrangeSox]

Nonetheless, we were all just taking the piss until larry literal came in to try and act all high and mighty.

 

go back to england

[StrangeSox]

In the mean-time, if you want to try to understand the rhetorical background on privilege I'm coming from, you can read over this:

 

http://nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf

 

or maybe this, a condensed version:

 

http://brown-betty.livejournal.com/305643.html

 

I'm probably using shorthand or terminology or phrasing that, if someone isn't familiar with it, could be misinterpreted or misunderstood to mean something else. I'm not always the best communicator.

[southsider2k5]

Then you are plainly misunderstanding.

 

Can you lay out a more detailed argument to back up those conclusions or readings of my posts?

 

Of course that isn't what you actually meant...

[StrangeSox]

I don't think you can actually make a case for the interpretation you're accusing me of. However, as I'm actually concerned about privilege, I would like to know if a good case can be made that I actually am saying something along the lines that you've claimed so that I can examine what assumptions and background I was coming from that lead me to say or believe those things.

[Jenksismyhero]

I don't think you can actually make a case for the interpretation you're accusing me of. However, as I'm actually concerned about privilege, I would like to know if a good case can be made that I actually am saying something along the lines that you've claimed so that I can examine what assumptions and background I was coming from that lead me to say or believe those things.

 

I think when you argue that our culture and society alters peoples behavior, and then argue that "we" need to change or combat that culture, you're insinuating that the victimized group can't keep from being victimized, even though the majority of society can. Society needs to help them because they can't help themselves. Yeah, privilege and circumstance might expose you to certain complex issues, like running a business, but just because you haven't been exposed to certain ideas doesn't mean you're prevented from figuring it out yourself. I'm apparently an affluent white lawyer. I have great parents and siblings and friends in all walks of life. Yet I figure s*** out on my own all the time. It's called the internet. It's called the library. It's called using your brain.

 

In a minority of cases, yes, I would agree that some people literally grow up in a world so far removed from the real world they don't know any different. But that's not the majority of people. The majority of people know right and wrong. The majority of people have common sense. The majority of people have the ability to figure "it" out. The people we're talking about choose not to use what they have because there's an easier option available - blame other people, demand assistance from society. And sadly, that too has become ingrained in our culture as acceptable behavior.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Privilege isn't really about "victims," and I haven't said that disprivileged people lack any form of agency. I've argued that people with privilege have an easier time doing something than people without privilege, and that that privilege often goes completely unnoticed. You covered this in your first sentence, though you might have missed it, when you said "even though the majority of society can." The majority of society (generally speaking) are the ones with the privilege, the 'norm' group. You later say that you figure things out on your own all the time using the library or the internet. Those are resources that are not equitably distributed. You were also educated (presumably) in good schools with good libraries and have had familiarity with the internet since you were a kid. Knowing how to teach yourself, knowing how to do research is a skill in and of itself.

 

As I said before, this goes beyond race and class, e.g. heterosexuality is the privileged norm because the default expectation is that you're straight. Being openly gay is still an issue, still something that gay people have to deal with that straight people don't.

 

The argument is that there's some level of injustice inherent in our society that makes it easier for some and not for others. That isn't saying that "society needs to help them because they can't help themselves," it's saying that our society should be changed so that it isn't unfairly more difficult for certain groups. At no point have I made the argument that they are helpless and need some white savior.

[Soxbadger]

In the mean-time, if you want to try to understand the rhetorical background on privilege I'm coming from, you can read over this:

 

http://nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf

 

or maybe this, a condensed version:

 

http://brown-betty.livejournal.com/305643.html

 

I'm probably using shorthand or terminology or phrasing that, if someone isn't familiar with it, could be misinterpreted or misunderstood to mean something else. I'm not always the best communicator.

 

I didnt read the pdf, but the HTML was ridiculous. Advantages that you think are normal? How in the world does that apply to being Kosher. If anything, being able to keep Kosher is a privilege because it means you have enough money to pick and choose what you eat.

 

The article also did not even recognize that the same person could be considered "privileged" in one area and be considered "not privileged" in another.

[StrangeSox]

It pretty explicitly did right near the top:

 

Privilege is not: About you. Privilege is not your fault. Privilege is not anything you've done, or thought, or said. It may have allowed you to do, or think, or say things, but it's not those things, and it's not because of those things. Privilege is not about taking advantage, or cheating, although privilege may make this easier. Privilege is not negated. I can't balance my white privilege against my female disadvantage and come out neutral. Privilege is not something you can be exempt from by having had a difficult life. Privilege is not inherently bad. It really isn't.

 

I don't get what you're trying to say about eating Kosher. You don't innately assume that's our society's normal dietary choices, it's not a subconscious assumption of the norm. Anyway yeah a lot of "Social Justice Warriors" can take stuff to ridiculous levels, but I just threw that up as maybe a quick primer on the subject for those who might not be familiar with the basic concepts of social justice. There's probably a better source but, eh.

 

And the Kosher part demonstrates that, to some extent, privileges will always exist. If a majority of people don't keep Kosher, it's going to be harder for the Kosher guy to find food. Conversely, if we mostly did keep Kosher, it'd be hard for someone with a culinary culture steeped in shell fish to find food. Nothing inherently wrong there, imo, just something that "is."

Edited January 11, 2013 by StrangeSox

[Jenksismyhero]

Privilege isn't really about "victims," and I haven't said that disprivileged people lack any form of agency. I've argued that people with privilege have an easier time doing something than people without privilege, and that that privilege often goes completely unnoticed. You covered this in your first sentence, though you might have missed it, when you said "even though the majority of society can." The majority of society (generally speaking) are the ones with the privilege, the 'norm' group. You later say that you figure things out on your own all the time using the library or the internet. Those are resources that are not equitably distributed. You were also educated (presumably) in good schools with good libraries and have had familiarity with the internet since you were a kid. Knowing how to teach yourself, knowing how to do research is a skill in and of itself.

 

As I said before, this goes beyond race and class, e.g. heterosexuality is the privileged norm because the default expectation is that you're straight. Being openly gay is still an issue, still something that gay people have to deal with that straight people don't.

 

The argument is that there's some level of injustice inherent in our society that makes it easier for some and not for others. That isn't saying that "society needs to help them because they can't help themselves," it's saying that our society should be changed so that it isn't unfairly more difficult for certain groups. At no point have I made the argument that they are helpless and need some white savior.

 

Is it societies fault that parents are s***ty? That kids are stuck in s***ty homes? Injustice is when the game is rigged without giving you any sort of opportunity to play. That's not our society. It may be more difficult to play, but everyone has the same opportunity if they take it.

 

I'm not sure how we can "change society" unless we're willing to hold people accountable for their actions. Bailing them out and paying them off isn't changing behavior for future generations.

 

 

 

[Soxbadger]

Damnit I deleted my original post so this isnt going to be half as good.

 

She did not talk about my point, which is that where you are may determine whether you are part of a privileged sect or not. A white man may be privileged in the US, he may not be privileged in Congo. A woman may not be privileged in US, but she may be privileged in Amazon. She does not recognize that you cant be so broad and vague. That the word privilege means something, and that general definition does not mean man, woman or skin color. That is just her nonsensical and unsubstantiated life view. Put it this way, no one is going to say that Kate Middleton isnt privileged. Now maybe she isnt as much as Prince Charles, but that is all relative and why its useless.

 

And that is why she incorrectly used Kosher. Kosher goes against societal norms. That is the entire reason Kosher law was created, to stop normal activity. Thus anyone keeping Kosher explicitly understands that they are making a choice, that will make their life harder. In fact even in Israel a Kosher McDonalds is more rare than a regular McDondalds.

 

She is confusing choice with privilege. Being privileged or not privileged is generally not a choice. I had no choice whether I was born rich or poor. I do have a choice of whether I keep Kosher. You just cant compare if you have any clue what you are talking about.

[StrangeSox]

Congrats, you've identified that not every single contributing factor in someone's life can be mapped to social justice issues, though why their parents and homes are s***ty might be at least somewhat related.

 

Social injustice isn't about deliberate and conscious rigging or discrimination. A lot of it is about lack of self-awareness among the privileged, like the straight white male from an upper-middle class background with good parents not realizing how much smoother his road in life has been than others.