The Democrat Thread

[Jenksismyhero]

The deeply flawed nature of colorblindness, as a governing principle, is evidenced by the fact that the public consensus supporting mass incarceration is officially colorblind. It purports to see black and brown men not as black and brown, but simply as men - raceless men - who have failed miserably to play by the rules the rest of us follow quite naturally. The fact that so many black and brown men are rounded up for drug crimes that go largely ignored when committed by whites is unseen. Our blindness also prevents us from seeing the racial and structural divisions that persist in society: Ye segregated, unequal schools, the segregated, jobless ghettos, and the segregated public discourse - a public conversation that excludes the current pariah caste. Our commitment to colorblindness extends beyond individuals to institutions and social arrangements. We have become blind, not so much to race, but to the existence of racial caste in America.

— Michelle Alexander, The New Jim Crow

 

So when a black person commits a crime we should excuse it on account of their history? Seriously?

[StrangeSox]

Not really what's being said there.

[Jenksismyhero]

I'm going a step further with it, but that's basically the import of what she's saying.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Jenksismybitch

[StrangeSox]

Nope.

 

edit: do you get why Colbert is always lampooning being "colorblind"?

Edited January 24, 2013 by StrangeSox

[witesoxfan]

I don't believe cops look the other way when a white person sells drugs as opposed to a black or brown person. Instead, I imagine that, when white people sell drugs, they more often sell drugs in areas where crime is not incredibly high, so cops aren't on the lookout for it to near the extent they should be.

 

Perhaps that's naive, so let's consider then that, for the last 15 years or so, roughly 80% of gang members have been Latino or African American. Do you think perhaps that's part of the reason for the high number of minorities in prison? If Latino and African Americans are being targeted unfairly, why are Asians not treated similarly?

 

And to use the term segregation is to pidgeonhole the idea that these people are being forced to live here by the overtly racist US Government. There are other factors as to why these people live here, such as segregation from 75-100 years ago with no ability to break out of it (and the lack of resources attributed to these areas are among the repercussions from that), but there is no one forcing them to live here, though it is not necessarily their choice (because if they can afford nothing else, there isn't much choice). And, in these high crime areas, the idea of starting a business sounds not only risky, but dangerous to boot.

 

The 3 primary goals I would have in mind in improving living conditions in these areas are to break up gangs, increase patrols, and improve public education. From there, you can begin to discuss further economic development within the areas as well, such as business investments and building renovations.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

If you want to break up gangs, you need to get to the root of why those gangs exist.

[Reddy]

I don't believe cops look the other way when a white person sells drugs as opposed to a black or brown person. Instead, I imagine that, when white people sell drugs, they more often sell drugs in areas where crime is not incredibly high, so cops aren't on the lookout for it to near the extent they should be.

 

Perhaps that's naive, so let's consider then that, for the last 15 years or so, roughly 80% of gang members have been Latino or African American. Do you think perhaps that's part of the reason for the high number of minorities in prison? If Latino and African Americans are being targeted unfairly, why are Asians not treated similarly?

 

And to use the term segregation is to pidgeonhole the idea that these people are being forced to live here by the overtly racist US Government. There are other factors as to why these people live here, such as segregation from 75-100 years ago with no ability to break out of it (and the lack of resources attributed to these areas are among the repercussions from that), but there is no one forcing them to live here, though it is not necessarily their choice (because if they can afford nothing else, there isn't much choice). And, in these high crime areas, the idea of starting a business sounds not only risky, but dangerous to boot.

 

The 3 primary goals I would have in mind in improving living conditions in these areas are to break up gangs, increase patrols, and improve public education. From there, you can begin to discuss further economic development within the areas as well, such as business investments and building renovations.

 

yyyeah... but if two white people are talking in close proximity, the first thing a cop jumps to probably isn't drug deal - in fact he probably wouldn't even notice, but if it's two black guys you know that's the first thing on his mind.

 

[Reddy]

If you want to break up gangs, you need to get to the root of why those gangs exist.

education and poverty

[witesoxfan]

yyyeah... but if two white people are talking in close proximity, the first thing a cop jumps to probably isn't drug deal - in fact he probably wouldn't even notice, but if it's two black guys you know that's the first thing on his mind.

 

How are they dressed? How are they acting? If they have on bandanas and saggy pants and a wife beater, then he's going to be a bit more suspicious. But if a cop sees Barack Obama and Colin Powell holding a conversation, do you think he's going to frisk them for drugs?

[StrangeSox]

What if they see a black tenured Harvard professor trying to get into his own house?

 

eta: though classism enters into the crime disparities, too.

Edited January 24, 2013 by StrangeSox

[Jake]

There are certain aspects of what you might call "black culture" (I know, reductive) that contribute to the disproportionate crimes rates and even some of the poverty problems. Unfortunately, these are problems made by white people for enslaving, segregating, and discriminating against these people for the vast majority of their time spent in the USA. There are issues beyond getting them to make more money since we basically forced a huge group of people to live in and accept poverty, for sure, since not everyone can simply decide they want the WASP dream of college, car, house, wife, 2.5 kids when that isn't part of the culture they grew up in.

 

I'm sure the most efficient way to fix this is still to get these folks higher paying jobs. I'm interested in some public housing research that has been done and I assume is still being implemented. Instead of housing projects, they do housing vouchers and try to focus on locating these poor folks in middle and higher income areas. In the research I've been privy to see, the children raised with public housing vouchers in middle or high income areas have had much better rates of behavior, academic success, and other important factors. Interestingly, the parents didn't have any significant improvements in terms of crime rates, income, etc between those placed in low-income vs middle and higher. In other words, it is important to raise at-risk children in such a way that they are exposed to more successful role models. Once they get older, it gets much trickier.

 

So this will be a slow process but a big first step beyond a policy focus on ending poverty is ending segregation. This has been mentioned on here before, but Chicago is a perfect example. It is extremely segregated and we are at a point where the people in bad parts of Chicago are raised too far removed from the great parts to see a legitimate way out.

[witesoxfan]

Or Torii Hunter.

 

Bias and sub-conscious racism occurs. Yes, a white cop is more likely to be suspicious of two blacks. If a black cop is just as suspicious of two blacks doing it, is it racist, segregated, or even biased then? What if it is a latino cop?

 

To suggest that cops are out to get black people and minorities in general is just as short-sighted and wrong as suggesting no bias occurs. They are looking to stop crime. And they may be (or are) biased and go after the groups of people who typically commit the crime, even when they do not have just cause. I'm not arguing that it's right, I'm merely suggesting why they do it. They are fighting the symptoms of the problem, rather than the cause.

[StrangeSox]

There are certain aspects of what you might call "black culture" (I know, reductive) that contribute to the disproportionate crimes rates and even some of the poverty problems.

 

This is bulls***, gonna quote someone from another mb:

 

if anything, i think you have it backwards. the concept of race, as a way of categorizing and socializing people, predates the current vogue of "race as culture." i find it more likely that people use the ideas of "black culture," etc., as socially acceptable veneers for racist attitudes. it even references older ideas about race as an innate biological fact: now, we don't hate black people, no, it's not the people, it's just their culture. coincidentally, the elements of this culture we don't like just happen to be the same kinds of stereotypes and myths that prevailed when we did think of blackness as having some essential (and inferior) character. please ignore the fact that our concept of "black culture" shares so much of its ideological dna with slaveholder justifications.

 

here, too, the cycle between structure and signifier prevails. social structures that marginalize black people lead to poverty, social strife, and crime. "black culture" comes signify economic incompetence, violence, and criminality. this justifies political decisions designed to control and police black communities rather than addressing the inequalities. and on and on it rolls... you will hear all about how "rap culture" glorifies violence and misogyny, for example, but you will never hear about rock and roll or country music that is also violent and misogynistic, nor will you be invited to consider all the white kids that love rap.

 

culture is real, and culture can shape attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, but any racialized concept of culture is almost certainly just racism dressed up in modern, liberal, cultural-relativist garb. this is probably where i could bring in a bunch of other sociology/theory/jargon stuff about hegemony, but this is getting way too long, suffice to say that this is not the result of any conscious conspiratorial activity, power structures just have a capacity for emergent adaption to accommodate challenges.

[Jake]

This is bulls***, gonna quote someone from another mb:

 

So can we say "poverty culture" and get on with solving the problem?

[StrangeSox]

Or Torii Hunter.

 

Bias and sub-conscious racism occurs. Yes, a white cop is more likely to be suspicious of two blacks. If a black cop is just as suspicious of two blacks doing it, is it racist, segregated, or even biased then? What if it is a latino cop?

 

It'd tie back into structural racism, expectations and absorbed stereotypes. That quote I posted was speaking more of that structural racism and not any one individual's racist thoughts.

 

To suggest that cops are out to get black people and minorities in general is just as short-sighted and wrong as suggesting no bias occurs. They are looking to stop crime. And they may be (or are) biased and go after the groups of people who typically commit the crime, even when they do not have just cause. I'm not arguing that it's right, I'm merely suggesting why they do it. They are fighting the symptoms of the problem, rather than the cause.

 

It's not exactly about individuals consciously out to "get" minorities, though there is undoubtedly some of that. Why police patrol certain areas and the effects that disparate policing has are complex issues that I'll admit I don't have much information on.

 

[StrangeSox]

So can we say "poverty culture" and get on with solving the problem?

 

No, you're still at the same place. Poverty didn't arise from "poverty culture," and there's an awful lot of different people in poverty in this country and across the world, and there's many people not in poverty who share in the same cultures. It plays right back into that same feedback loop.

[Jake]

No, you're still at the same place. Poverty didn't arise from "poverty culture," and there's an awful lot of different people in poverty in this country and across the world, and there's many people not in poverty who share in the same cultures. It plays right back into that same feedback loop.

 

So what do you want to call it? I'm trying to communicate a name for a really complex problem and we're getting caught up in the name instead of the solution. I'm happy to learn and I always enjoy your posts, but I'd love to see more "do this" instead of "don't do that." If your posting style was a TV show, it would be like the best episode of Law and Order every time but without the verdict at the end. Give me the verdict!

[Jenksismyhero]

Nope.

 

edit: do you get why Colbert is always lampooning being "colorblind"?

 

I don't watch Colbert, so I wouldn't know.

[StrangeSox]

The "do this" there would be to not treat it as a problem because of "black culture" or "poverty culture" because that only reinforces the structural problems that lead to and perpetuate poverty. I took issue with that one line in your post but agree with the rest. Maybe I even read too much into it due to the ongoing convo I'm reading elsewhere, but I think you concede too much if you allow the framing to shift to 'problems with black culture' even if you acknowledge the sources. In the sentence after that, you even explain what's a core problem with treating it as a problem of "black culture," that the poverty was forced on a group of people for an overwhelming majority of our country's existence. So, to whatever extent "black culture" 'glorifies' crime and drug use, it's a reaction to the poverty. The problem then isn't 'black culture' but the societal structures that result in so many black people being in poverty.

 

You're right that I have a better grasp on "what not to do" than on explicit solutions.

[StrangeSox]

I don't watch Colbert, so I wouldn't know.

 

Poll taxes and literacy tests were "colorblind."

 

Advocating for a "colorblind" state when there's still structural racism is advocating to cement that structural racism in place. You don't have to agree that there is structural racism, but that doesn't mean you can distort what that quote was actually saying.

[Jenksismyhero]

Or Torii Hunter.

 

Bias and sub-conscious racism occurs. Yes, a white cop is more likely to be suspicious of two blacks. If a black cop is just as suspicious of two blacks doing it, is it racist, segregated, or even biased then? What if it is a latino cop?

 

To suggest that cops are out to get black people and minorities in general is just as short-sighted and wrong as suggesting no bias occurs. They are looking to stop crime. And they may be (or are) biased and go after the groups of people who typically commit the crime, even when they do not have just cause. I'm not arguing that it's right, I'm merely suggesting why they do it. They are fighting the symptoms of the problem, rather than the cause.

 

It's fun to discuss this issue with my white Chicago cop friend who works in the gang unit. He'd argue it's impossible to not stereotype given the day-in, day-out stuff he deals with.

[Jenksismyhero]

Poll taxes and literacy tests were "colorblind."

 

Advocating for a "colorblind" state when there's still structural racism is advocating to cement that structural racism in place. You don't have to agree that there is structural racism, but that doesn't mean you can distort what that quote was actually saying.

 

I still find this idea of structural racism to be ludicrous. Structural racism sounds as if the system is rigged. It was, 100 years ago, and it f***ed up the future prospects for a lot of minorities leading to the problems we have today ("Free the blacks!! Oh, but we don't want to live next to them. Put them over there and they can fend for themselves.") The system today, however, is not "structured" such that it's racist.

 

If we're talking about problems with labeling or putting these things into context, i think this is equally problematic. Minorities are a disadvantaged because of past policies, not current ones.

[Jenksismyhero]

There are certain aspects of what you might call "black culture" (I know, reductive) that contribute to the disproportionate crimes rates and even some of the poverty problems. Unfortunately, these are problems made by white people for enslaving, segregating, and discriminating against these people for the vast majority of their time spent in the USA. There are issues beyond getting them to make more money since we basically forced a huge group of people to live in and accept poverty, for sure, since not everyone can simply decide they want the WASP dream of college, car, house, wife, 2.5 kids when that isn't part of the culture they grew up in.

 

I'm sure the most efficient way to fix this is still to get these folks higher paying jobs. I'm interested in some public housing research that has been done and I assume is still being implemented. Instead of housing projects, they do housing vouchers and try to focus on locating these poor folks in middle and higher income areas. In the research I've been privy to see, the children raised with public housing vouchers in middle or high income areas have had much better rates of behavior, academic success, and other important factors. Interestingly, the parents didn't have any significant improvements in terms of crime rates, income, etc between those placed in low-income vs middle and higher. In other words, it is important to raise at-risk children in such a way that they are exposed to more successful role models. Once they get older, it gets much trickier.

 

So this will be a slow process but a big first step beyond a policy focus on ending poverty is ending segregation. This has been mentioned on here before, but Chicago is a perfect example. It is extremely segregated and we are at a point where the people in bad parts of Chicago are raised too far removed from the great parts to see a legitimate way out.

 

You are what you grow up with. I think the only true way to eradicate this problem is to ship those kids off to different areas of the state/country and get them out of that environment. Unfortunately, that's a harsh measure and will never be a serious option.

[Reddy]

You are what you grow up with. I think the only true way to eradicate this problem is to ship those kids off to different areas of the state/country and get them out of that environment. Unfortunately, that's a harsh measure and will never be a serious option.

or, ya know, put money and resources into improving the schools in those areas?

[witesoxfan]

or, ya know, put money and resources into improving the schools in those areas?

 

With how messed up some of these areas are, it's going to take a hell of a lot more than that. You do have to change an entire culture, whatever you name want to give it. A part of that is schools, a part of it is breaking up gangs and increasing patrols, a part of it is improving the buildings and businesses within the area, a part is having multiple assistance groups within ear shot (B&G club, a YMCA, libraries - whatever), and even that is barely scratching the surface. An improvement on the general infrastructure on a lot of these areas is still a mere fraction of what needs to be done to improve these areas.