The Democrat Thread

[Jenksismyhero]

or, ya know, put money and resources into improving the schools in those areas?

 

You could put a brand new state of the art school in the middle of the Austin neighborhood, fill it with the best teachers in the country, and it wouldn't change a thing. This myth of the lack of financial resources is a liberal pipe-dream that's decades in the making and it's continually shown to be false. We spend more money per student than anyone in the world and we have little to show for it.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

or, ya know, put money and resources into improving the schools in those areas?

 

But don't give them a choice to go to another school...

[StrangeSox]

I still find this idea of structural racism to be ludicrous. Structural racism sounds as if the system is rigged. It was, 100 years ago, and it f***ed up the future prospects for a lot of minorities leading to the problems we have today ("Free the blacks!! Oh, but we don't want to live next to them. Put them over there and they can fend for themselves.") The system today, however, is not "structured" such that it's racist.

 

If we're talking about problems with labeling or putting these things into context, i think this is equally problematic. Minorities are a disadvantaged because of past policies, not current ones.

 

You're projecting your own definitions of what structural racism is and how it arises onto the term. It isn't referring solely to legal structures or governmental policies but culture/society as a whole. You can say "institutional" instead of "structural" if that helps clarify between something that's actively and deliberately "structured" and something that arises out of a huge web of things.

 

But you're pushing things back quite a bit by saying "100 years." The absolute most you can go back is 40-45 years, which means millions of people who lived through that period. If minorities were disadvantaged for literally hundreds of years in this country (including colonial times), removing those legal disadvantages isn't going to eliminate an awful lot of built-in structural/institutional/social racism instantly or even within a couple of generations.

[StrangeSox]

But don't give them a choice to go to another school...

Yes, let's not privatize our school system.

[StrangeSox]

You could put a brand new state of the art school in the middle of the Austin neighborhood, fill it with the best teachers in the country, and it wouldn't change a thing. This myth of the lack of financial resources is a liberal pipe-dream that's decades in the making and it's continually shown to be false. We spend more money per student than anyone in the world and we have little to show for it.

 

We don't spend that money proportionately.

 

But the larger problem there is poverty itself and its causes, so building one new well-resourced school isn't going to change much in the short-term. Probably over a few generations it would.

Edited January 24, 2013 by StrangeSox

[southsider2k5]

Yes, let's not privatize our school system.

 

Not what was said, as usual.

[witesoxfan]

We don't spend that money proportionately.

 

But the larger problem there is poverty itself and its causes, so building one new well-resourced school isn't going to change much in the short-term. Probably over a few generations it would.

 

This is the largest factor in all of this, regardless of anything you said before it. You aren't going to change much in the short-term to begin with. If you are going to do this change and change people's minds and ideas, it's going be over the course of 2-3 generations. To implement changes and ideas and to expect anything to change within even 5 or 10 years is crazy. You are talking an entire shift in demographics here. If you can apply principles to improve this sort of thing, you are talking about monumental change.

[StrangeSox]

"School choice" is usually voucher programs, which means subsidizing private schools with public dollars and diverting resources away from public schools.

 

If that's not what you meant, sorry! I don't know of other proposed "choose your school" policies that aren't voucher programs.

[StrangeSox]

This is the largest factor in all of this, regardless of anything you said before it. You aren't going to change much in the short-term to begin with. If you are going to do this change and change people's minds and ideas, it's going be over the course of 2-3 generations. To implement changes and ideas and to expect anything to change within even 5 or 10 years is crazy. You are talking an entire shift in demographics here. If you can apply principles to improve this sort of thing, you are talking about monumental change.

 

The same is true with working to eliminate structural racism/sexism/etc. s*** don't happen overnight!

[southsider2k5]

"School choice" is usually voucher programs, which means subsidizing private schools with public dollars and diverting resources away from public schools.

 

If that's not what you meant, sorry! I don't know of other proposed "choose your school" policies that aren't voucher programs.

 

Open enrollment. It isn't very difficult, or evil.

[mr_genius]

which means subsidizing private schools with public dollars and diverting resources away from public schools.

 

Good. A lot of that "public" money was taken from me and I want school vouchers

[StrangeSox]

My apologies for unfairly assuming you meant school voucher programs. I know there have been registration protests at schools like New Trier in the past, and that absurd case of a mother in Ohio being sentenced to multiple years in prison for intentionally registering her child at the wrong school.

[witesoxfan]

The same is true with working to eliminate structural racism/sexism/etc. s*** don't happen overnight!

 

One step at a time.

 

I'm generally conservative but areas like this, where long term there are huge economic benefits, I am pretty liberal and want to see governments help out as much as they can. If in 20 years you can drop the African-American poverty rate from nearly 40% to around 20-25%, there are that many more productive members of society, unemployment is cut across the board, and, ideally, crime rate has decreased as well.

[StrangeSox]

It's not even just about poverty, though. Across all educational levels, african-americans are out-earned by their white counterparts. Hard to argue against the existence of structural racism when you see things like that imo.

[mr_genius]

It's not even just about poverty, though. Across all educational levels, african-americans are out-earned by their white counterparts. Hard to argue against the existence of structural racism when you see things like that imo.

 

For the same degrees? Also Asians make more than whites so they are the most racist.

[Reddy]

You could put a brand new state of the art school in the middle of the Austin neighborhood, fill it with the best teachers in the country, and it wouldn't change a thing. This myth of the lack of financial resources is a liberal pipe-dream that's decades in the making and it's continually shown to be false. We spend more money per student than anyone in the world and we have little to show for it.

i honestly disagree. i don't think you can overvalue the importance of role models regardless of where kids grow up.

[StrangeSox]

In unrelated news,

 

New Mexico Bill Would Criminalize Abortions After Rape As 'Tampering With Evidence'

A Republican lawmaker in New Mexico introduced a bill on Wednesday that would legally require victims of rape to carry their pregnancies to term in order to use the fetus as evidence for a sexual assault trial.

 

It remains a mystery as to why Republicans can't win a majority of the female vote.

[Reddy]

In unrelated news,

 

New Mexico Bill Would Criminalize Abortions After Rape As 'Tampering With Evidence'

 

 

It remains a mystery as to why Republicans can't win a majority of the female vote.

 

Republicans are just so good at shooting themselves in the foot. It's pretty awesome.

 

I guarantee in 20 years the two parties in America will be the Democrats and the Libertarians (unless it's still the Republicans and they adopt Libertarian principles)

[mr_genius]

In unrelated news,

 

New Mexico Bill Would Criminalize Abortions After Rape As 'Tampering With Evidence'

 

 

It remains a mystery as to why Republicans can't win a majority of the female vote.

 

The GOP does suck. This has already been agreed upon.

[Jenksismyhero]

i honestly disagree. i don't think you can overvalue the importance of role models regardless of where kids grow up.

 

And where are the role models? At home? Nope. At school? Nope, they don't go (see the CPS wanting to close a bunch of schools because of a lack of attendance). The "role models" are in the streets, where these kids learn early on that money and street cred comes from a life of drugs and crime.

[Reddy]

And where are the role models? At home? Nope. At school? Nope, they don't go (see the CPS wanting to close a bunch of schools because of a lack of attendance). The "role models" are in the streets, where these kids learn early on that money and street cred comes from a life of drugs and crime.

 

lol thus why i said investment in schools would help. good teachers can make kids want to go to school. yeah, it won't fix all the problems, but it won't HURT

 

taking a bunch of small steps is a lot better than doing nothing, like you're suggesting

[StrangeSox]

And where are the role models? At home? Nope. At school? Nope, they don't go (see the CPS wanting to close a bunch of schools because of a lack of attendance). The "role models" are in the streets, where these kids learn early on that money and street cred comes from a life of drugs and crime.

This is why this is cyclical and self-reinforcing and why you need to look at and address what led that previous generation "to the streets" in the first place. Which is why even if legal racism was outlawed a few decades ago, there are still enormous lingering effects.

[DukeNukeEm]

This is why this is cyclical and self-reinforcing and why you need to look at and address what led that previous generation "to the streets" in the first place.

"need"? Like we are absolutely compelled to to meet the basic requirements for survival?

 

Nah ha ha ha, no we dont "need" to do anything. We could just sit back and not care. I mean we've amended, changed, trashed and created all the legislation necessary to remove segregation and bigotry from the state. That's been done, that was this countries' cross to bear for all the bad s*** it got itself caught up in with the past.

[StrangeSox]

shut up

 

edit: "got itself caught up in" lol, nice attempt at passivization there

 

edit2: this country's "cross to bear" for generations of slavery and legal racism was to...stop slavery and legal racism? Doesn't seem like much of a cross, unless your phrasing is unintentionally revealing your views of civil rights legislation

Edited January 24, 2013 by StrangeSox

[DukeNukeEm]

shut up

 

edit: "got itself caught up in" lol, nice attempt at passivization there

Someone needs to cancel out your drama-queen act.