The Democrat Thread

[Jenksismyhero]

You do a lot of guessing and supposing that just happens to confirm your pre-conceived ideas and dismisses contradictory evidence.

 

What evidence? That article (at least in terms of the access to the system portion) is based on a survey of people's beliefs, not the system itself or the ACTUAL access to the system.

[Jenksismyhero]

I don't care what you think is overblown. The disparity in conviction rates, especially for capital crimes, is abundantly clear. Poorer people accused of a crime, many of whom are black, are going to be relying on our woefully underfunded and overburdened public defenders.

 

 

All more likely to be blamed on other societal factors, not the way our justice system operates.

 

[StrangeSox]

I say bollocks to that. I know two public defenders very well and both are incredibly smart and take a lot of pride in what they do. I also worked with a couple others during my internship at a states attorney's office during my last year of college. Are they the best of the best? No. But they're entirely capable. It's not like they throw out unseasoned 1st year law students to try a triple homicide death penalty case.

It's not whether they're good, capable people. It has to do with resources and caseloads. The caseloads for most public defenders are incredibly high. Much higher than the prosecutors. When they've got 150 felonies on their plate, it's not likely that each and every individual is getting representation on par with the state's resources.

[illinilaw08]

Ha. This makes me laugh:

 

 

 

The entire system is set up to make it incredibly easy to file a legitimate case. Attorneys bank roll the entire process, on a gamble essentially that they'll win for you, and you don't have to pay for hardly anything. Not to mention we have to be at or near the top of the list for the number of cases filed. Since the data is based on a survey, i'm guessing that is typical American "I want what I want and I want it now and for free!" mentality.

 

The system is not really well set up for someone who needs to defend a civil suit though. No access to an attorney for those that can't afford to pay an hourly rate. No knowledge of the rules (exemptions, what technical defenses might be available).

 

But I digress.

[StrangeSox]

All more likely to be blamed on other societal factors, not the way our justice system operates.

Our justice system "just happens" to disproportionately prosecute, convict, incarcerate and kill minorities.

[StrangeSox]

What evidence? That article (at least in terms of the access to the system portion) is based on a survey of people's beliefs, not the system itself or the ACTUAL access to the system.

The quoted sentence is ambiguous to me whether it measures public perception and availability and affordability or if it measures public perception of availability and affordability.

 

Either way you went straight to "I bet it's just lazy American mentality!" mode to dismiss it. Isn't public perception of the judicial system important in its legitimacy? Isn't it important in whether it actually provides justice to those who deserve it?

 

edit: Further down, this is clarified:

 

Access to civil justice. Are citizens able to resolve their personal grievances without resorting to violence or self-help? Are citizens aware of the remedies available to them, and is affordable legal advice available to them? Are there excessive fees and procedural barriers to courts and other dispute resolution mechanisms?

 

So it doesn't just rely on an opinion poll.

Edited May 6, 2013 by StrangeSox

[illinilaw08]

It's not whether they're good, capable people. It has to do with resources and caseloads. The caseloads for most public defenders are incredibly high. Much higher than the prosecutors. When they've got 150 felonies on their plate, it's not likely that each and every individual is getting representation on par with the state's resources.

 

This is true.

 

But I think that's true more from a general point. In my experience, someone with a capital case will have greater resources in their defense. The real disparity in resources are low level drug crimes, low level felonies. Much easier burden for a young prosecutor than for a young PD (again, based on my experience as a prosecutor a few years back).

[Jenksismyhero]

It's not whether they're good, capable people. It has to do with resources and caseloads. The caseloads for most public defenders are incredibly high. Much higher than the prosecutors. When they've got 150 felonies on their plate, it's not likely that each and every individual is getting representation on par with the state's resources.

 

Eh, to a degree I suppose. But again, if we're talking about death penalty cases or really severe felonies the representation is going to be more than adequate. You're not working on 150 felony trials every month.

 

I think the real problem is a public defender with 100 small drug offenses and he talks people into taking deals and getting a record versus potentially fighting the charge, all in order to clear his docket/make his monthly report look good. That kind of stuff certainly needs to be cleaned up and probably is a disadvantage over those who have access to private lawyers.

 

But hey, don't do the crime and it's not a problem.

[southsider2k5]

Our justice system "just happens" to disproportionately prosecute, convict, incarcerate and kill minorities.

 

Are those numbers compared to the number of crimes actually committed by socioeconomic levels?

[Balta1701]

Are those numbers compared to the number of crimes actually committed by socioeconomic levels?

According to HRW, minorities and whites use drugs at similar rates, minorities are vastly overrepresented in those jailed for drug crimes. ~14% of drug users estimated to be African American, but 37% of people jailed for drug crimes are African American.

[southsider2k5]

According to HRW, minorities and whites use drugs at similar rates, minorities are vastly overrepresented in those jailed for drug crimes. ~14% of drug users estimated to be African American, but 37% of people jailed for drug crimes are African American.

 

That is one subsection. I'm curious what the raw numbers actually look like.

[StrangeSox]

Eh, to a degree I suppose. But again, if we're talking about death penalty cases or really severe felonies the representation is going to be more than adequate. You're not working on 150 felony trials every month.

 

I think the real problem is a public defender with 100 small drug offenses and he talks people into taking deals and getting a record versus potentially fighting the charge, all in order to clear his docket/make his monthly report look good. That kind of stuff certainly needs to be cleaned up and probably is a disadvantage over those who have access to private lawyers.

 

But hey, don't do the crime and it's not a problem.

 

Facts not in evidence, counselor.

 

This is actually one of the key sources of the problem, as public defenders work to get plea deals because they don't have the time and resources to actually fight the case. Maybe on the aggregate that's the best route, but it's going to result in a lot of innocent people taking pleas in order to avoid potentially harsh sentences for a crime they didn't commit. There's no objective way to deny that our public defenders are seriously overburdened when compared to what they're up against.

 

The NYT had a piece on this as well last week:

 

The case of Mr. Zapata would usually be overlooked in the flood of 50,000 Bronx misdemeanor filings a year. But he was part of a special legal-defense effort led by the Bronx Defenders, which provides legal representation to poor Bronx residents charged with crimes. That effort tested the borough’s courts by trying to bring 54 misdemeanor marijuana possession cases to trial for clients who had been arrested as part of New York City’s controversial stop-and-frisk program and wanted to fight the charges.

 

Instead, these defendants got a through-the-looking glass criminal justice system where charges that were punishable by a maximum sentence of three months in jail could take many times that just winding toward an always elusive trial. And when the increasingly elastic speedy-trial rules of the Bronx were finally stretched too far by delay after delay, prosecutors would sometimes drop the cases as if they were never quite worth their time anyway.

 

Eventually, the effort by the Bronx Defenders, done in partnership with the Wall Street law firm Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton, was scrapped. The grim conclusion was that the borough’s courts were incapable of giving defendants the hearings that people expect. Of the 54 cases, not one ended in a trial.

 

“The normal rules about being ready and having your day in court just don’t apply,” said Lev L. Dassin, a former acting United States attorney in Manhattan who was the Cleary Gottlieb partner in charge of the firm’s work on the project. “It’s appalling.”

 

The rights of the accused were not the only ideals compromised. The inability to get a judge to provide a complete hearing or a full decision in a single case meant the Bronx courts ignored pressing constitutional questions about the city’s controversial stop-and-frisk program. There were no hearings that allowed Bronx judges to wrestle with the fraught issues of public safety versus civil liberties, and no rulings that provided the police with firm guidelines about what the Constitution allowed when someone was searched in the street.

 

The Criminal Court’s absence from the debate is particularly glaring in the Bronx, where nearly 1 in 10 residents were stopped and frisked by the police in 2010 and 2011, according to new data compiled by Columbia University.

 

You're right that death penalty cases and severe felonies can draw in better representation, but that doesn't always happen. There was just a Kafkaesque ruling that found that delays in a trial caused by underfunded public defenders offices aren't a violation of your right to a speedy trial because maybe the defense filings over inadequate representation caused the delay!

 

 

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

Our justice system "just happens" to disproportionately prosecute, convict, incarcerate and kill minorities.

 

So you really truly believe that the police, prosecutors, and juries are just a bunch of racists? Come on.

 

 

 

[southsider2k5]

That is one subsection. I'm curious what the raw numbers actually look like.

 

To further the point, I am sure if I took insider trading convictions, it would reflect a much higher percentage for white males than anything else.

[StrangeSox]

That is one subsection. I'm curious what the raw numbers actually look like.

That's a significant chunk of our criminal justice system these days.

 

We could look to the spectacular failure of stop-and-frisk in NYC, too.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archiv...ew-york/275501/

[StrangeSox]

So you really truly believe that the police, prosecutors, and juries are just a bunch of racists? Come on.

 

No, that's not how systemic racism/prejudice works. It doesn't require a bunch of consciously and intentionally racist people.

 

A system that produces such drastic racially disparate results is, pretty much by definition, systemically racist.

[Balta1701]

To further the point, I am sure if I took insider trading convictions, it would reflect a much higher percentage for white males than anything else.

I see, so you also agree that the failure of firms to hire qualified african american applicants is a major problem as well.

[StrangeSox]

To further the point, I am sure if I took insider trading convictions, it would reflect a much higher percentage for white males than anything else.

You need to look at what rate crimes are investigated and prosecuted at, not just who happens to be convicted. You'd also need to look at relative sentencing (crack vs. powder cocaine being the most obvious one), parole rates, etc.

[StrangeSox]

There's also this recent story as well:

 

Disparities in School Discipline Move Students of Color Toward Prison

New Data Show Youth of Color Disproportionately Suspended and Expelled From School

 

New data released last week by the U.S. Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights signal that youth of color are disproportionately the subjects of harsh school discipline. The high punishment rates noted in the report are of critical significance not only because of their impact on student learning, but also because such discipline measures have proved to be a first step toward incarceration. Pervasive racial discrimination at all levels of the criminal justice system has relegated record numbers of people of color to lengthy prison terms and the loss of their most basic civil rights. Severe school discipline policies—including zero tolerance edicts—are contributing to this civil rights problem. African Americans make up two-fifths and Hispanics one-fifth of confined youth today. Yet instead of steering these students away from prison, current school discipline practices ensure that disproportionate numbers of students of color are trapped within the school-to-prison pipeline.

[southsider2k5]

You need to look at what rate crimes are investigated and prosecuted at, not just who happens to be convicted. You'd also need to look at relative sentencing (crack vs. powder cocaine being the most obvious one), parole rates, etc.

 

When you make a broad generalization, I find it better to study the broad numbers, versus making generalizations based on sub-sections.

[southsider2k5]

I see, so you also agree that the failure of firms to hire qualified african american applicants is a major problem as well.

 

So minorities would commit more crimes if only they had the opportunity?

[Balta1701]

So minorities would commit more crimes if only they had the opportunity?

Well, considering that virtually everything that happens in today's financial industry either is or should be classified as a crime, yes, allowing more african americans into that industry would cause them to commit more crimes .

[Jenksismyhero]

No, that's not how systemic racism/prejudice works. It doesn't require a bunch of consciously and intentionally racist people.

 

A system that produces such drastic racially disparate results is, pretty much by definition, systemically racist.

 

I never bought the idea that a system could be racist simply because the results are unequal. But that comes down to semantics and arguing over how the term racist is defined.

 

Edit: For example, based on that use of the term, the NFL and NBA are racist towards whites. Otherwise, there would be more white players.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Jenksismybitch

[StrangeSox]

no, not really. you don't get the core concept.

[Jenksismyhero]

no, not really. you don't get the core concept.

 

No i get the concept just fine but thanks! Racism is a belief. A system does not have a belief.