The Democrat Thread

[Balta1701]

Next time you go into the lobby of your run-of-the-mill chain fast food joint watch the employees. They just kind of mope around, haphazardly throwing together sandwiches they (nor the customer) really care about. They socialize while ignoring customers at the register, fiddle with the machines... they dont really care. I dont really care either, so its not like I'm offended when I'm buying that garbage.

 

The only way you could really think they work hard is if you're completely foreign to the idea of physical labor and think anyone who does it in even the slightest capacity must be working hard.

Sounds like every business I've ever walked into.

[Jake]

Yep, those buttholes are living the good life. Thanks a lot, government. Meanwhile, everyone is trying to give out good jobs but there is nobody to take them. Tragic.

[DukeNukeEm]

Sounds like every business I've ever walked into.

So you think they should all be paid more?

[Balta1701]

So you think they should all be paid more?

Fast food workers? Yes. And for god's sake provided with health care and sick days, because "guy making food with the flu because they have no health insurance or sick days" would be about the stupidest thing ever if we weren't doing so already.

 

As it's been noted many times, with adjustments for inflation, the minimum wage in the 60's and 70's was more than $5 an hour higher than the current point.

 

 

[DukeNukeEm]

Fast food workers? Yes.

Why? You agreed with me saying they dont really do anything. I mean most of us are OK with that because we grasp the point that the reason the dollar menu exists (the only reason to ever eat at McDonald's by the way) is because the worthless employees aren't paid much. But take away the low-wage employees and the dollar menu goes with it, so now we expect something more than the bare minimum from McDonalds, and those expectations are unlikely to ever be met.

[Balta1701]

Why? You agreed with me saying they dont really do anything. I mean most of us are OK with that because we grasp the point that the reason the dollar menu exists (the only reason to ever eat at McDonald's by the way) is because the worthless employees aren't paid much. But take away the low-wage employees and the dollar menu goes with it, so now we expect something more than the bare minimum from McDonalds, and those expectations are unlikely to ever be met.

H. Christ, you think that's the "reason the dollar menu exists"? The dollar menu exists because it's a major profit-center and also draws people in through the doors.

 

If they really don't do anything, then paying the better ones more and reducing staffing by 10% would be a solid move that would improve service and the product overall.

[DukeNukeEm]

H. Christ, you think that's the "reason the dollar menu exists"? The dollar menu exists because it's a major profit-center and also draws people in through the doors.

 

If they really don't do anything, then paying the better ones more and reducing staffing by 10% would be a solid move that would improve service and the product overall.

If everyone is making $16/hr in there the profit motive for the dollar menu goes away. So does the dollar menu.

 

The better ones are pretty quickly promoted to management positions and eventually find themselves in the corporate side of the company. You read about these McDonalds success stories a lot, and they're really quite common.

 

Besides, lets say McDonalds fires all their bad employees (I laughed writing that)... where do those people go? I mean once fast-food has dried up there's not much lower you can sink. You could work for the government I guess, but you typically need to know somebody to make that happen and if you had those connections you wouldn't have been working at McDonalds in the first place. So now you've put those people into essentially state care, sentencing all of us to a lifetime of taxes just to subsidize their meaningless lives.

[Jake]

If everyone is making $16/hr in there the profit motive for the dollar menu goes away. So does the dollar menu.

 

The better ones are pretty quickly promoted to management positions and eventually find themselves in the corporate side of the company. You read about these McDonalds success stories a lot, and they're really quite common.

 

Besides, lets say McDonalds fires all their bad employees (I laughed writing that)... where do those people go? I mean once fast-food has dried up there's not much lower you can sink. You could work for the government I guess, but you typically need to know somebody to make that happen and if you had those connections you wouldn't have been working at McDonalds in the first place. So now you've put those people into essentially state care, sentencing all of us to a lifetime of taxes just to subsidize their meaningless lives.

 

I'm sure the government just takes care of them? Isn't that the way the right views the world?

 

 

[DukeNukeEm]

I'm sure the government just takes care of them? Isn't that the way the right views the world?

Yup that's exactly what I said.

[pettie4sox]

Duke and his usual vile rhetoric. Get a job and get off the Sox talk forums ya bum!

[StrangeSox]

Getting a second job is probably a good start. You really shouldn't be able to sustain yourself working at McDonalds, that's a job for teenagers or people who are dependent on others. If you're trying to support yourself (or heaven forbid, others) McDonalds aint gonna work, its not supposed to, its not that kind of job. Either find a whole new job or find another to add on top of it. Dont like working 74 hour weeks? Tough s***, I dont like paying taxes, get to work.

 

Ok, even if we buy into your Randian logic, you're still sort of missing why this was so ridiculous. $0/month for heating.

[Jenksismyhero]

Ok, even if we buy into your Randian logic, you're still sort of missing why this was so ridiculous. $0/month for heating.

 

To be slightly more fair to the moronic list they put out, I read over the weekend that those numbers were based on actual figures provided by McDonalds workers. It's not like they just made them up. And some of the categories/numbers do not represent what people are saying the represent. The incomes, for example, were after-tax and after-benefit deductions. The 2nd income was meant to be either a 2nd job or a spouses income from their job. Health costs were co-pays, not insurance. I don't remember if they explained the $0 for heat, since that's obviously dumb, but maybe it was directed to a McDonald's franchise group located in a place where you don't need heat.

 

IMO the problem wasn't the list but of the purpose behind the list - trying to argue that a McDonald's job is a career job. Duke, despite being a bit over the top, is 100% correct that burger flippers at McDonald's shouldn't expect to get a large salary and benefits for doing a menial job. McDonald's jobs are meant for high schoolers, not 50 year olds. Unless you're on the management track you really don't have any business complaining about your pay. Go find a better job if you have a mortgage, 2 kids and a car to pay for.

[StrangeSox]

To be slightly more fair to the moronic list they put out, I read over the weekend that those numbers were based on actual figures provided by McDonalds workers. It's not like they just made them up. And some of the categories/numbers do not represent what people are saying the represent. The incomes, for example, were after-tax and after-benefit deductions. The 2nd income was meant to be either a 2nd job or a spouses income from their job. Health costs were co-pays, not insurance. I don't remember if they explained the $0 for heat, since that's obviously dumb, but maybe it was directed to a McDonald's franchise group located in a place where you don't need heat.

 

IMO the problem wasn't the list but of the purpose behind the list - trying to argue that a McDonald's job is a career job. Duke, despite being a bit over the top, is 100% correct that burger flippers at McDonald's shouldn't expect to get a large salary and benefits for doing a menial job. McDonald's jobs are meant for high schoolers, not 50 year olds. Unless you're on the management track you really don't have any business complaining about your pay. Go find a better job if you have a mortgage, 2 kids and a car to pay for.

 

The average age of a fast-food worker today is 30 years old. These are the s*** jobs our current economy offers.

[lostfan]

What's with this "get a better job" stuff?

 

People (generally Baby Boomer types) say this all the time to people who didn't expect to be unemployed as long as they are or work at s*** jobs below their skill level. It's like... gee why the f*** didn't I think of that before? That's a brilliant idea. I'll just go get a job that pays me more and doesn't suck!

[pettie4sox]

Commence the circle jerk.

[Nixon]

I wish I lived in this fantasy world where most workers are competent and people are rewarded on merit. As someone who has suffered through HR duties for extended periods of my life I can tell you that a good 80% of people you encounter in life are f***ing morons. Trust in the bell curve.

 

Christ, I forgot you downy soft baseball fans had a language filter.

 

Keith, what the devil is this?

Edited July 22, 2013 by Nixon

[lostfan]

I wish I lived in this fantasy world where most workers are competent and people are rewarded on merit. As someone who has suffered through HR duties for extended periods of my life I can tell you that a good 80% of people you encounter in life are f***ing morons. Trust in the bell curve.

 

Christ, I forgot you downy soft baseball fans had a language filter.

 

Keith, what the devil is this?

Lol, people like me give the filter a lot of work to do.

[Y2HH]

The average age of a fast-food worker today is 30 years old. These are the s*** jobs our current economy offers.

 

To people without any skills, yes.

 

Growing up, these are the jobs I worked before I had any skills, too. And I didn't expect to be paid as if I did, either. That's why I did something about it.

 

...and I know, my life full of "white" privilege is what did it all for me, too. I know this because I put fourth no effort to get where I am today. I didn't go to school full time (24 credit hours per semester) all while working at Dunkin' Donuts on the weekends for 5$ an hour, and Osco Drug at nights during the week for 5.35$ an hour, either, all with no car, because all I could afford was public transportation. Because my privileged upbringing in Bridgeport afforded me all the luxuries of life, and my daddy had me all set up with the perfect job long before I even graduated high school.

 

After a while, I get sick of listening to peoples s***. Most of the time, I can look at their Facebook feed and show you exactly why they're f***ing broke and going nowhere, and it wouldn't matter if they were making 100k or 45k, they'd end up in the SAME situation.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Y2HH

[illinilaw08]

To people without any skills, yes.

 

Growing up, these are the jobs I worked before I had any skills, too. And I didn't expect to be paid as if I did, either. That's why I did something about it.

 

...and I know, my life full of "white" privilege is what did it all for me, too. I know this because I put fourth no effort to get where I am today. I didn't go to school full time (24 credit hours per semester) all while working at Dunkin' Donuts on the weekends for 5$ an hour, and Osco Drug at nights during the week for 5.35$ an hour, either, all with no car, because all I could afford was public transportation. Because my privileged upbringing in Bridgeport afforded me all the luxuries of life, and my daddy had me all set up with the perfect job long before I even graduated high school.

 

After a while, I get sick of listening to peoples s***. Most of the time, I can look at their Facebook feed and show you exactly why they're f***ing broke and going nowhere, and it wouldn't matter if they were making 100k or 45k, they'd end up in the SAME situation.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/janetnovack/20...mps-and-reality

 

Forbes discusses the McDonalds budget. Basically, the column says that the minimum wage brings less purchasing power than it did when first instituted. Goes on to say that the gap is actually covered by federal programs (food stamps, welfare, etc.) which programs, in a way, actually are subsidies to low wage employers like McDonalds and Wal-Mart (they pay less for the same labor). Interesting column.

 

As to your other point, I do a lot of bankruptcy work, both on the creditor side and on the debtor side. People who go "broke" making $45k or $100k per year are at least able to pay for neccessities (rent, food, heat) while making their poor decisions that push them into bankruptcy. Then, there are a class of people who literally cannot afford to file a bankruptcy because their income is so meager.

 

The point here is twofold: First, is there a societal obligation to help those at the bottom attain the basic necessities (food, clothing, shelter). I argue that there is because, if people can afford the necessities, in theory, crime goes down, property values go up (panhandlers and the homeless are... not great for property values). What mechanism you use to get there, I'm open to suggestion. Second, do businesses have a moral obligation to their employees? There have been articles recently discussing how Costco is destroying Sam's Club because, by actually paying their employees well, their employees are loyal, happy and productive.

 

Finally, I hate the attitude that "because I went through something crappy, other people should go through it as well." Partners at law firms who were treated like crap as associates are more likely to treat associates like crap themselves. It's admirable that Y2HH worked extremely hard to achieve his success. And there are plenty of others like that on this board. But would you have achieved success if Osco or Dunkin paid you better? Yeah, you still would have. And that success would have ultimately been easier to achieve (based on your description above of working two jobs while in school) if you only had to work one job to make ends meet, or working two jobs allowed you to afford something more reliable than public trans. The goal should be to make that success, to make the ability to improve your circumstances, easier and not harder.

 

Hang on, I need a second to get off my soapbox...

[StrangeSox]

lol, facebook feed

[southsider2k5]

Yeah, he should be hanging out on left wing blogs and publications instead!

[Y2HH]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/janetnovack/20...mps-and-reality

 

Forbes discusses the McDonalds budget. Basically, the column says that the minimum wage brings less purchasing power than it did when first instituted. Goes on to say that the gap is actually covered by federal programs (food stamps, welfare, etc.) which programs, in a way, actually are subsidies to low wage employers like McDonalds and Wal-Mart (they pay less for the same labor). Interesting column.

 

As to your other point, I do a lot of bankruptcy work, both on the creditor side and on the debtor side. People who go "broke" making $45k or $100k per year are at least able to pay for neccessities (rent, food, heat) while making their poor decisions that push them into bankruptcy. Then, there are a class of people who literally cannot afford to file a bankruptcy because their income is so meager.

 

The point here is twofold: First, is there a societal obligation to help those at the bottom attain the basic necessities (food, clothing, shelter). I argue that there is because, if people can afford the necessities, in theory, crime goes down, property values go up (panhandlers and the homeless are... not great for property values). What mechanism you use to get there, I'm open to suggestion. Second, do businesses have a moral obligation to their employees? There have been articles recently discussing how Costco is destroying Sam's Club because, by actually paying their employees well, their employees are loyal, happy and productive.

 

Finally, I hate the attitude that "because I went through something crappy, other people should go through it as well." Partners at law firms who were treated like crap as associates are more likely to treat associates like crap themselves. It's admirable that Y2HH worked extremely hard to achieve his success. And there are plenty of others like that on this board. But would you have achieved success if Osco or Dunkin paid you better? Yeah, you still would have. And that success would have ultimately been easier to achieve (based on your description above of working two jobs while in school) if you only had to work one job to make ends meet, or working two jobs allowed you to afford something more reliable than public trans. The goal should be to make that success, to make the ability to improve your circumstances, easier and not harder.

 

Hang on, I need a second to get off my soapbox...

 

To make a finer point, my issue isn't with the truly underprivileged at all. If anyone has a right to b****, it's them, but most often, it's not them doing the b****ing. And when I say b****/b****ing, I mean about things such as income inequality, opportunity, the means to do so, etc. My beef is largely with those that DID have opportunity, and squandered it, that DID have guidance, yet ignored it, and did have the means, but blew it. They are often the loudest and most obnoxious when it comes to financial issues across the board, and how unfair life is. Yet, they all have their iPods, iPhones, Androids, Laptops, Automobiles and love eating at Capital Grill, and walking around with 5$ cups of *$, despite being in debt to the tune of thousands. Yet, when I see them at parties or bbq's, if the subject of finances comes up I'm sure I'll get to hear about greedy investment bankers and politicians gaming the system for themselves, and leaving nothing for the rest of us.

 

Of course, they look at me as one of "them" (not them as in them, but them as in the privileged with money), when I'd be exactly like they were if I spent nearly what they spent.

 

Take for example that recent 1% protest or whatever it was they called it...did you get a chance to see them downtown Chicago at any point? Hipster Gen Y'ers with iPods, Apple T-Shirts and Venti Fraps b****ing about the unfairness of the 1%. It made me puke into the back of my throat, which made me dislike them that much more.

[Y2HH]

lol, facebook feed

 

Facebook feeds can give you an actual glimpse into someones life. Just look at their timeline...pictures of their 7$ Starbucks, their steak at Cap Grille, and an endless stream of bars, where beers are 5$ each, when a 12 pack at the store is 9$.

 

Those feeds can show you why they're broke, and it sure as hell isn't the "man" keeping them down.

[southsider2k5]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/janetnovack/20...mps-and-reality

 

Forbes discusses the McDonalds budget. Basically, the column says that the minimum wage brings less purchasing power than it did when first instituted. Goes on to say that the gap is actually covered by federal programs (food stamps, welfare, etc.) which programs, in a way, actually are subsidies to low wage employers like McDonalds and Wal-Mart (they pay less for the same labor). Interesting column.

 

As to your other point, I do a lot of bankruptcy work, both on the creditor side and on the debtor side. People who go "broke" making $45k or $100k per year are at least able to pay for neccessities (rent, food, heat) while making their poor decisions that push them into bankruptcy. Then, there are a class of people who literally cannot afford to file a bankruptcy because their income is so meager.

 

The point here is twofold: First, is there a societal obligation to help those at the bottom attain the basic necessities (food, clothing, shelter). I argue that there is because, if people can afford the necessities, in theory, crime goes down, property values go up (panhandlers and the homeless are... not great for property values). What mechanism you use to get there, I'm open to suggestion. Second, do businesses have a moral obligation to their employees? There have been articles recently discussing how Costco is destroying Sam's Club because, by actually paying their employees well, their employees are loyal, happy and productive.

 

Finally, I hate the attitude that "because I went through something crappy, other people should go through it as well." Partners at law firms who were treated like crap as associates are more likely to treat associates like crap themselves. It's admirable that Y2HH worked extremely hard to achieve his success. And there are plenty of others like that on this board. But would you have achieved success if Osco or Dunkin paid you better? Yeah, you still would have. And that success would have ultimately been easier to achieve (based on your description above of working two jobs while in school) if you only had to work one job to make ends meet, or working two jobs allowed you to afford something more reliable than public trans. The goal should be to make that success, to make the ability to improve your circumstances, easier and not harder.

 

Hang on, I need a second to get off my soapbox...

 

Actually it was also an interesting article because it went into how things like EITC and negative tax rates aren't accounted for. I hadn't seen that mentioned before.

[iamshack]

Facebook feeds can give you an actual glimpse into someones life. Just look at their timeline...pictures of their 7$ Starbucks, their steak at Cap Grille, and an endless stream of bars, where beers are 5$ each, when a 12 pack at the store is 9$.

 

Those feeds can show you why they're broke, and it sure as hell isn't the "man" keeping them down.

Hey, someone has to contribute to our economy!