The Democrat Thread

[Jenksismyhero]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/janetnovack/20...mps-and-reality

 

Forbes discusses the McDonalds budget. Basically, the column says that the minimum wage brings less purchasing power than it did when first instituted. Goes on to say that the gap is actually covered by federal programs (food stamps, welfare, etc.) which programs, in a way, actually are subsidies to low wage employers like McDonalds and Wal-Mart (they pay less for the same labor). Interesting column.

 

As to your other point, I do a lot of bankruptcy work, both on the creditor side and on the debtor side. People who go "broke" making $45k or $100k per year are at least able to pay for neccessities (rent, food, heat) while making their poor decisions that push them into bankruptcy. Then, there are a class of people who literally cannot afford to file a bankruptcy because their income is so meager.

 

The point here is twofold: First, is there a societal obligation to help those at the bottom attain the basic necessities (food, clothing, shelter). I argue that there is because, if people can afford the necessities, in theory, crime goes down, property values go up (panhandlers and the homeless are... not great for property values). What mechanism you use to get there, I'm open to suggestion. Second, do businesses have a moral obligation to their employees? There have been articles recently discussing how Costco is destroying Sam's Club because, by actually paying their employees well, their employees are loyal, happy and productive.

 

Finally, I hate the attitude that "because I went through something crappy, other people should go through it as well." Partners at law firms who were treated like crap as associates are more likely to treat associates like crap themselves. It's admirable that Y2HH worked extremely hard to achieve his success. And there are plenty of others like that on this board. But would you have achieved success if Osco or Dunkin paid you better? Yeah, you still would have. And that success would have ultimately been easier to achieve (based on your description above of working two jobs while in school) if you only had to work one job to make ends meet, or working two jobs allowed you to afford something more reliable than public trans. The goal should be to make that success, to make the ability to improve your circumstances, easier and not harder.

 

Hang on, I need a second to get off my soapbox...

 

The "in theory" is important there. The more money you give people, the longer they hold their hand out waiting for more.

[lostfan]

Facebook feeds can give you an actual glimpse into someones life. Just look at their timeline...pictures of their 7$ Starbucks, their steak at Cap Grille, and an endless stream of bars, where beers are 5$ each, when a 12 pack at the store is 9$.

 

Those feeds can show you why they're broke, and it sure as hell isn't the "man" keeping them down.

If you guys judged me off my Facebook posts you'd think I was a crazy person who wanted to kill everyone but really liked posting about funny s*** his son does.

[southsider2k5]

If you guys judged me off my Facebook posts you'd think I was a crazy person who wanted to kill everyone but really liked posting about funny s*** his son does.

 

I'm just judging you because you are black.

[iamshack]

I'm just judging you because you are black.

He is?!?

 

*ignore*

[lostfan]

I'm just judging you because you are black.

That means I'm cool

[lostfan]

He is?!?

 

*ignore*

Well like to the extent Carlton Banks is black yeah. lol

[southsider2k5]

That means I'm cool

 

Plus you can dance and dunk.

[southsider2k5]

Well like to the extent Carlton Banks is black yeah. lol

 

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/carlton%20gif

[Jake]

That's actually Trayvon Martin in lostfan's profile picture

[Y2HH]

If you guys judged me off my Facebook posts you'd think I was a crazy person who wanted to kill everyone but really liked posting about funny s*** his son does.

 

I have a sense of humor, but it's quite a bit different when you're posting stuff about your children than posting all the awesome places you're going too/spending money on, and then b****ing to me about finances and how unfair everything is.

[StrangeSox]

Yeah, he should be hanging out on left wing blogs and publications instead!

 

 

Facebook feeds can give you an actual glimpse into someones life. Just look at their timeline...pictures of their 7$ Starbucks, their steak at Cap Grille, and an endless stream of bars, where beers are 5$ each, when a 12 pack at the store is 9$.

 

Those feeds can show you why they're broke, and it sure as hell isn't the "man" keeping them down.

The working poor generally aren't sitting on facebook, that's what is lol-worthy.

 

e.g.

 

I have a sense of humor, but it's quite a bit different when you're posting stuff about your children than posting all the awesome places you're going too/spending money on, and then b****ing to me about finances and how unfair everything is.

 

 

is not really relevant to poverty and working-class poverty in this country.

Edited July 23, 2013 by StrangeSox

[DukeNukeEm]

Ok, even if we buy into your Randian logic, you're still sort of missing why this was so ridiculous. $0/month for heating.

More than offset by the $150/mo new car payment that you'd have to be an idiot to have if you're flipping burgers at the big arches.

[DukeNukeEm]

is not really relevant to poverty and working-class poverty in this country.

I actually agree with you here. These are mostly just kids who are hopelessly addicted to consumerism and want more money to turn around and buy more crap with. The idea of investment in anything is foreign to them. If it costs less than $20 they'll buy it impulsively, if it costs less than $1000 they'll either save to buy it or blow their savings on it.

[Y2HH]

The working poor generally aren't sitting on facebook, that's what is lol-worthy.

 

e.g.

 

 

 

 

is not really relevant to poverty and working-class poverty in this country.

 

Which means you need to re-read my posts...because you missed the entire context in which they were written.

 

I specifically ruled out ACTUAL poor people in my statements, in a pretty damn clear manner, no less.

 

So basically, you responded multiple times with "lol worthy" nonsense, since you missed, or didn't even bother to read anything I wrote...yet found the time to respond anyway.

 

I'm honestly beginning to wonder if you live in an alternate dimension, because...seriously, trying to have a conversation with you has become f***ing infuriating.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Y2HH

[Y2HH]

To make a finer point, my issue isn't with the truly underprivileged at all. If anyone has a right to b****, it's them, but most often, it's not them doing the b****ing. And when I say b****/b****ing, I mean about things such as income inequality, opportunity, the means to do so, etc. My beef is largely with those that DID have opportunity, and squandered it, that DID have guidance, yet ignored it, and did have the means, but blew it. They are often the loudest and most obnoxious when it comes to financial issues across the board, and how unfair life is. Yet, they all have their iPods, iPhones, Androids, Laptops, Automobiles and love eating at Capital Grill, and walking around with 5$ cups of *$, despite being in debt to the tune of thousands. Yet, when I see them at parties or bbq's, if the subject of finances comes up I'm sure I'll get to hear about greedy investment bankers and politicians gaming the system for themselves, and leaving nothing for the rest of us.

 

Of course, they look at me as one of "them" (not them as in them, but them as in the privileged with money), when I'd be exactly like they were if I spent nearly what they spent.

 

Take for example that recent 1% protest or whatever it was they called it...did you get a chance to see them downtown Chicago at any point? Hipster Gen Y'ers with iPods, Apple T-Shirts and Venti Fraps b****ing about the unfairness of the 1%. It made me puke into the back of my throat, which made me dislike them that much more.

 

I figured it was time to repost my own post, since "someone" didn't bother reading it.

 

I even took out the highlighter so you wouldn't miss it...again.

[Balta1701]

More than offset by the $150/mo new car payment that you'd have to be an idiot to have if you're flipping burgers at the big arches.

How does this person get to work? And what sort of interest rates are they able to get on a car loan?

[Y2HH]

How does this person get to work? And what sort of interest rates are they able to get on a car loan?

 

...highlighting ANOTHER unfairness to the TRULY poor. I feel the message is getting lost, because the "middle class" love to consider themselves poor, when an actual poor person would get laughed at even trying to get a loan.

 

I recently bought a used car from CarMax, and paid down quite a bit of it, but needed a loan on about 8k -- the rate CarMax returned to me was 3%. The guy was like...WOW, I've never seen anyone get a loan that low on a used car. This highlights how the system rewards success, and it annoys me when people that COULD be successful if they ever bothered saving a f***ing dime b**** about things like this...when the truly underprivileged wouldn't even have a conversation about something like this, because they'd have to laugh and tell you, "A loan, are you kidding me...nobody'd lend me that kind of money!"

[Y2HH]

Well like to the extent Carlton Banks is black yeah. lol

 

I met Lostfan, and when I did he made me do this:

 

[DukeNukeEm]

How does this person get to work? And what sort of interest rates are they able to get on a car loan?

A 2013 Ford Focus which you can get for $150/mo if you're willing to learn/already know how to drive a 6 speed? Seriously? That's what someone working at McDonald's should be driving to work? If they just took the down payment for that car and bought an old Civic that $150/mo just vanishes from their monthly budget. Or they can take the goddamn bus.

 

Unless poor people are entitled to new cars now, maybe the government will just start handing them out to the "truly needy" like they already do cell phones. I mean, how else are they supposed to get to work?!

Edited July 23, 2013 by DukeNukeEm

[Balta1701]

A 2013 Ford Focus which you can get for $150/mo if you're willing to learn/already know how to drive a 6 speed? Seriously? That's what someone working at McDonald's should be driving to work? If they just took the down payment for that car and bought an old Civic that $150/mo just vanishes from their monthly budget. Or they can take the goddamn bus.

 

Unless poor people are entitled to new cars now, maybe the government will just start handing them out to the "truly needy" like they already do cell phones. I mean, how else are they supposed to get to work?!

Ah yes, the great lease deals that poor people get on new cars, I remember now. And the convenient bus routes that go to all of the local fast food outlets.

[DukeNukeEm]

Ah yes, the great lease deals that poor people get on new cars, I remember now. And the convenient bus routes that go to all of the local fast food outlets.

Or this:

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/ctd/3955156294.html

Which will serve anyone admirably for about $250k miles before s*** starts going wrong. Car payments are not something that should be factored into the monthly budget of the working poor, new cars are something you have to earn and not entitled to anyone.

[Balta1701]

Should I also note there is no line for gas money? Or auto repair on the car you're trying to push to 250k miles?

[Y2HH]

Should I also note there is no line for gas money? Or auto repair on the car you're trying to push to 250k miles?

 

Could you point out life is unfair in more ways? In some ways, I agree with what you're saying, but for f***s sake, after a while, it becomes noise.

[Balta1701]

Could you point out life is unfair in more ways? In some ways, I agree with what you're saying, but for f***s sake, after a while, it becomes noise.

As do all the lectures about how great and easy it is to be poor. Lucky-duckies with their small tax bills.

[Y2HH]

As do all the lectures about how great and easy it is to be poor. Lucky-duckies with their small tax bills.

 

Wouldn't know, I'm not poor, but unlike you, I don't pretend to be an underprivileged poor person, who knows exactly how poor people feel.

 

You know who was actually poor, my father was. As in below American poverty poverty poor. Growing up in Nazi Germany, nearly starving on a daily basis poor.

 

And he b****es less about this than anyone I know, including those -- such as yourself -- that were born infinity more privileged than he was.

 

As I said, after a while, it becomes white b**** noise, and nothing more.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Y2HH