The Democrat Thread

[DukeNukeEm]

Permanent road work is the end result of trying to keep bridges and roads alive that hit their design lifetimes decades ago. Over 1 year it's clearly less expensive than the replacement, but over the long term it's also much more expensive. You just outlined the problem.

I was using the term permanent for effect. The I-80 crossing in Omaha was under construction for years before I started even driving truck, I crossed it 3 days ago and their starting to reopen some lanes in Council Bluffs.

[StrangeSox]

I go from Salt Lake City into Seattle a lot. Ive never, not in rush hour or weekends or whenever seen enough traffic to jam up even 2 lanes. A third is nice for trucks because there are some grades. Its a works project, a nice check to some contractors to blow up the Cascades and stuff a superhighway in there.

 

You've been driving a truck for something like six months, right? Been through that area in heavy snowfall yet? That could be a major motivation behind the expansion.

 

Have you read anything about the project at all? Or is this just more "common sense" engineering? The funny thing about appeals to common sense is that they're really just circular arguments.

[StrangeSox]

huh sounds like a decent reason for some of the roadwork there at Snoqualmie Pass http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/News/2013/03/13_I9...nchebridges.htm

 

This design change came after several months of collaboration between WSDOT and contractor, Guy F. Atkinson Construction. When complete, the new bridges will take traffic up and over a series of engineered avalanche paths designed to direct future sliding snow, rock and debris between the piers and towards Keechelus Lake.

 

This design will reduce the number of closures of I-90 due to avalanche control work as well as reduce maintenance and operations costs.

 

“This change will add no additional cost to this contract, it will actually save WSDOT approximately $650,000 per year that would have been used to maintain fire and life safety systems in the snowshed,” said Don Whitehouse, WSDOT regional administrator. “The innovative design of the new bridges will keep I-90 open during the winter.

[DukeNukeEm]

Because the government would never embellish whatever benefit they can to the general public when their in the process of blowing $300 million. I also struggle to understand how fire proofing a quarter mile long snowshed cost $650,000 A YEAR.

[StrangeSox]

I take that as an admission that you have zero background information on the work ongoing at Snoqualmie Pass and why it's being undertaken.

[Cknolls]

Permanent road work is the end result of trying to keep bridges and roads alive that hit their design lifetimes decades ago. Over 1 year it's clearly less expensive than the replacement, but over the long term it's also much more expensive. You just outlined the problem.

Like floating debt to pay everyday gov't expenses. Over the long run costs a hell of lot more. Did you see the cover of the Sunday Tribune. Sheesh

 

[Balta1701]

Like floating debt to pay everyday gov't expenses. Over the long run costs a hell of lot more. Did you see the cover of the Sunday Tribune. Sheesh

That's the remarkable thing about the negative interest rates the government has been paying on its debt for the last several years...it literally does not cost a hell of a lot more right now. The private sector has been begging the government to spend money to the point where it's willing to take a loss on interest in order to own treasuries. For years. It literally is the exact opposite right now.

[Jake]

I'm imagining Duke driving over a bridge and going "nice job, government!" I think this is good - Duke agrees that the government can and should build and maintain roads, we all just disagree about how much and how often. I like finding common ground.

[DukeNukeEm]

Also lets not forget, actually fixing something means they cant give their friends a bunch of money every year to pretend to fix it. Best to just say "structurally bad! Need forever work!" than to leave a perfectly good bridge sitting there without any lazy employees to stand around digging holes then filling them in again forever.

[Balta1701]

Also lets not forget, actually fixing something means they cant give their friends a bunch of money every year to pretend to fix it. Best to just say "structurally bad! Need forever work!" than to leave a perfectly good bridge sitting there without any lazy employees to stand around digging holes then filling them in again forever.

Ah, the slam that all federal workers must be lazy. Boy I'm sure you had to work hard to come up with that original comment.

[StrangeSox]

Also lets not forget, actually fixing something means they cant give their friends a bunch of money every year to pretend to fix it. Best to just say "structurally bad! Need forever work!" than to leave a perfectly good bridge sitting there without any lazy employees to stand around digging holes then filling them in again forever.

 

I think I need to point out again that the ASCE, the group that gives out "grades" for our infrastructure, is a private, non-governmental group. You seem to have essentially zero knowledge of roadway construction, structural engineering or traffic engineering other than driving a truck.

[DukeNukeEm]

I think I need to point out again that the ASCE, the group that gives out "grades" for our infrastructure, is a private, non-governmental group. You seem to have essentially zero knowledge of roadway construction, structural engineering or traffic engineering other than driving a truck.

Youre telling me civil engineers wouldnt benefit at all from having a panicked government throwing money everywhere towards projects theyll make millions on? Theyre a political organization, a lobbying group for more contracts.

[StrangeSox]

Add "professional organizations" to the list of things duke has strong opinions but zero knowledge about.

[DukeNukeEm]

Add "professional organizations" to the list of things duke has strong opinions but zero knowledge about.

How the hell could our rail network, which is almost twice the size of any other countries', be a D-? Or our electrical grid be a C? The interstate highway system is the envy of the world and its a D.

 

Its ridiculous.

[Jenksismyhero]

Duke is obviously going way overboard, but in the most general sense he has a point about government overspending on new construction projects that aren't necessary and/or maintenance work that isn't REALLY necessary. The Bridge to Nowhere is a good example. And while it wasn't built, the "Road to Nowhere" leading up to it was a complete waste of 25-30 million dollars and was only built because if the state didn't spend it, they'd have to give the money back to the Federal Government. The Thompson Correctional Center is another.

 

Pork projects like that happen everywhere.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Jenksismybitch

[StrangeSox]

How the hell could our rail network, which is almost twice the size of any other countries', be a D-? Or our electrical grid be a C? The interstate highway system is the envy of the world and its a D.

 

Its ridiculous.

 

Perhaps you should read their report to find out! Or continue to believe that you can assess infrastructure from the seat of a truck.

[Jenksismyhero]

How the hell could our rail network, which is almost twice the size of any other countries', be a D-? Or our electrical grid be a C? The interstate highway system is the envy of the world and its a D.

 

Its ridiculous.

 

I'm no expert, but I have to imagine those grades are on a perfect scale. In other words, a C might be totally acceptable and functional, whereas A is pristine. Anyone who lives in Chicago knows the roads are s*** in the winter and probably get an F, but they're still functional for the most part.

 

Also, after litigating several cases involving huge road construction projects, i'm not at all surprised anymore with how many millions of dollars those projects spend given the amount of work involved from the design through the end of construction. It's insane the amount of stuff they (the state and its contractors) do.

[StrangeSox]

Duke is obviously going way overboard, but in the most general sense he has a point about government overspending on new construction projects that aren't necessary and/or maintenance work that isn't REALLY necessary. The Bridge to Nowhere is a good example. And while it wasn't built, but the "Road to Nowhere" leading up to it was a complete waste of 25-30 million dollars and was only built because if the state didn't spend it, they'd have to give the money back to the Federal Government. The Thompson federal prison is another.

 

Pork projects like that happen everywhere.

 

Yes, pork projects happen. Dumb projects happen. I happen to be working on a sort of dumb one right now!

 

But Duke can't actually identify anything. All he's doing is restating his priors that "government=bad/failure/waste" while also demonstrating that he doesn't actually know even the basic details of infrastructure engineering and maintenance, or what professional organizations like ASCE are and do. He's just repeating his ideology, not making an argument or presenting any sort of evidence.

[StrangeSox]

I'm no expert, but I have to imagine those grades are on a perfect scale. In other words, a C might be totally acceptable and functional, whereas A is pristine. Anyone who lives in Chicago knows the roads are s*** in the winter and probably get an F, but they're still functional for the most part.

 

Duke expressed exasperation about our electrical grid getting a "C," but he really should read up on the problems with it. I'm sure iamshack can provide some comments as well. Maybe he remembers back in 2003 when a huge chunk of the country lost power for days due to a series of electrical grid failures. There's plenty of reports by groups like ASCE and IEEE and news stories that detail the issues with our current grid.

 

Also, after litigating several cases involving huge road construction projects, i'm not at all surprised anymore with how many millions of dollars those projects spend given the amount of work involved from the design through the end of construction. It's insane the amount of stuff they (the state and its contractors) do.

 

The paperwork. Dear god, the paperwork. Forms on top of forms on top of forms.

[Jenksismyhero]

Duke expressed exasperation about our electrical grid getting a "C," but he really should read up on the problems with it. I'm sure iamshack can provide some comments as well. Maybe he remembers back in 2003 when a huge chunk of the country lost power for days due to a series of electrical grid failures. There's plenty of reports by groups like ASCE and IEEE and news stories that detail the issues with our current grid.

 

 

 

The paperwork. Dear god, the paperwork. Forms on top of forms on top of forms.

 

Ha, yeah. I get to review that stuff on occasion. I am still to this day amazed at the fact that IDOT is somewhat organized in keeping records of those projects.

[Jenksismyhero]

Yes, pork projects happen. Dumb projects happen. I happen to be working on a sort of dumb one right now!

But Duke can't actually identify anything. All he's doing is restating his priors that "government=bad/failure/waste" while also demonstrating that he doesn't actually know even the basic details of infrastructure engineering and maintenance, or what professional organizations like ASCE are and do. He's just repeating his ideology, not making an argument or presenting any sort of evidence.

 

Right, and the problem is the government isn't supposed to waste money like that, especially when it's also asking for more from the people (well, the middle class anyway). But it does, continually.

[cabiness42]

How the hell could our rail network, which is almost twice the size of any other countries', be a D-? Or our electrical grid be a C? The interstate highway system is the envy of the world and its a D.

 

Its ridiculous.

 

I know nothing about the electrical grid stuff so I can't answer that one.

 

Our rail network, while fantastic for commercial use, is terrible for passenger use. Rail is by far the most efficient means of moving people at distances up to 300 miles, yet we are all driving/flying those distances because passenger rail travel outside the Bos-NY-Phi-Bal-DC corridor is worthless. It's absolutely insane that people fly to Chicago from Minneapolis/Detroit/Cleveland/St. Louis/Indy for reasons other than connecting to an international flight.

 

Of course, the net result is that, while we have a fantastic network of roads, the roads themselves are in need of serious repair/expansion, because many are reaching the end of their life cycles.

 

A major investment by the government in infrastructure would do wonders for this country. Of course, there would need to be an elimination of a lot of pet pork projects and other spending in order to make this happen, so it's very unlikely to happen.

 

[StrangeSox]

Right, and the problem is the government isn't supposed to waste money like that, especially when it's also asking for more from the people (well, the middle class anyway). But it does, continually.

 

Plenty of private companies waste money on dumb projects and inefficient operations. Either way, duke continues to believe that some=all.

[bmags]

pork projects has tended to mean infrastructure projects. Pork would be great to have again.

[cabiness42]

pork projects has tended to mean infrastructure projects. Pork would be great to have again.

 

Some pork projects do happen to be infrastructure, but these tend to be very localized and not always the most necessary use of the money. I'm talking about cutting all the pork and redirecting into nationwide infrastructure improvement program. I thought something was going to get off the ground with high speed rail, but that doesn't seem to be going anywhere.