The Democrat Thread

[Jenksismyhero]

Right, but this is under the assumption that because he felt it was okay to torture and maim I should be okay with torturing him. And that's not the case. I think he should be punished, just not tortured to death.

 

I think this is a pretty distorted view of what happened and what torture really means. A mistake was made somewhere. That's not torture, it was a mistake. That's like saying in war when you shoot at someone and you blow their arm off you're committing torture. It wasn't done with purpose.

[StrangeSox]

Well we know a restorative justice system has never worked, so there's really no other alternative here.

We do? How thoroughly has one ever been implemented? And where RJ has been partially implemented, is it actually a failure?

 

But even if that's true, that doesn't mean the only other possible choice is a highly punitive system. A majority of countries get by without a death penalty. Many produce better results than our system without the DP or LWOP or solitary confinement. There's a huge excluded middle between some academic concept of a completely RJ system and what we have in the US today.

 

I just don't see the value in keeping these guys alive. Or keeping mass murders alive.

 

It's not a value proposition.

 

Let's ignore the instances of error (a small percentage mind you) and stick to cases where we're 100% confident that the person who is charged is the person that did the killing - the boston marathon bomber, the colorado theater shooting.

 

Executing one innocent person is a horrendous moral crime. Getting it wrong at least 4% of the time is a travesty.

 

You're not going to restore them back to law abiding citizens. They'll never be free again. They've committed heinous and unforgivable crimes. What's the point of keeping them around? Why shouldn't death be the appropriate punishment?

 

Do we know that these two are not actually capable of rehabilitation? Do we know that their crimes are truly unforgivable for the victims (victims of violent crimes and their families don't universally support the DP)?

 

And even if they are, there is no reason to conclude that people who cannot be rehabilitated or forgiven therefore deserve death. Charles Manson seems to be a pretty clear case of unrehabilitated bats*** crazy, yet he's still (properly, imo) eligible for parole every so often. The point in not having the state unnecessarily kill someone is not having the state unnecessarily kill someone.

 

And just because the world gets by or does something different doesn't make it better.

No, but their better outcomes do mean it's better and shows that a death penalty isn't actually a necessity. That is where your justified killing breaks down for me; killing in war is a necessity whereas the death penalty is not.

 

 

What are the percentages of botched attempts though? If this happens 2% of the time, is it really cruel and unusual as a whole? They basically sedate you and then paralyze you until your heart stops. If dont properly, you don't feel anything. You go to sleep.

 

It's done improperly enough that it results in people being tortured to death, like what happened in Oklahoma. We euthanize animals more humanely.

 

[StrangeSox]

I think this is a pretty distorted view of what happened and what torture really means. A mistake was made somewhere. That's not torture, it was a mistake. That's like saying in war when you shoot at someone and you blow their arm off you're committing torture. It wasn't done with purpose.

 

I think results are more important than intention in this case. Whether they intended to or not, this man suffered severe pain that was caused by the criminal justice system.

 

Again the war analogies really just don't work. In a war, if I'm shooting at someone, they're likely trying to shoot at me as well. This prisoner was in the complete control of the DoC. If he had been left in his cell, nothing bad was going to happen to anyone else. Administering the lethal injection drugs was not something that had to be done. The improper administration of the unnecessary drugs resulted in severe pain and suffering. Taking completely unnecessary actions against a person who's completely controlled by you that have a known chance of causing severe pain and suffering and do end up causing that pain qualify as torture to me, regardless of your intent.

 

edit: but more importantly, you're shifting around your justifications here. bmags was replying to your previous justification that we shouldn't care if he was tortured because of the torture he put those other people through. This view means that torture is sometimes justified, which is something both bmags and I strongly reject.

Edited April 30, 2014 by StrangeSox

[Jenksismyhero]

I think results are more important than intention in this case. Whether they intended to or not, this man suffered severe pain that was caused by the criminal justice system.

 

Again the war analogies really just don't work. In a war, if I'm shooting at someone, they're likely trying to shoot at me as well. This prisoner was in the complete control of the DoC. If he had been left in his cell, nothing bad was going to happen to anyone else. Administering the lethal injection drugs was not something that had to be done. The improper administration of the unnecessary drugs resulted in severe pain and suffering. Taking completely unnecessary actions against a person who's completely controlled by you that have a known chance of causing severe pain and suffering and do end up causing that pain qualify as torture to me, regardless of your intent.

 

edit: but more importantly, you're shifting around your justifications here. bmags was replying to your previous justification that we shouldn't care if he was tortured because of the torture he put those other people through. This view means that torture is sometimes justified, which is something both bmags and I strongly reject.

 

Well, agree to disagree. If all you're looking at is the result than our entire justice system tortures criminals because on occasion they hurt themselves and/or are hurt while in our control 100% of the time.

 

I don't think this is torture. That's why I kept putting "torture" in quotes. I think this is a horribly inhumane convicted criminal who was caused to suffer for minutes by an accident. It was not done purposefully. It was not done with delight. It was an accident and if the accident had not occurred he would not have suffered at all.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[StrangeSox]

But it was done completely unnecessarily. Again, that's the major disconnect between torture that results from the DP and pain and suffering caused by war or incarceration in general. War is, unfortunately, sometimes necessary, and death and pain will result. The same is true for incarceration. But the death penalty is never actually a necessary thing.

[Balta1701]

Well, agree to disagree. If all you're looking at is the result than our entire justice system tortures criminals because on occasion they hurt themselves and/or are hurt while in our control 100% of the time.

 

I don't think this is torture. That's why I kept putting "torture" in quotes. I think this is a horribly inhumane convicted criminal who was caused to suffer for minutes by an accident. It was not done purposefully. It was not done with delight. It was an accident and if the accident had not occurred he would not have suffered at all.

Here's a bigger problem for you; a person like me.

 

I'm somewhat sympathetic on the death penalty in general. I think it can meet the 8th amendment standard, I don't think there's much good that comes from it...but if it gives the families of some crime victims some measure of "closure" for whatever that's worth I could be convinced that it's a tolerable evil.

 

But the only way I'd be willing to go along with it is if it's well administered. There has to be an overwhelming standard of guilt to avoid killing innocent people (which has almost certainly happened), it needs to be administered fairly/without the obvious racial biases that occur in cases right now, and it can't involve processes that clearly demolish the 8th amendment, as this case did.

 

If you don't care about how it happens when things go wrong, then you don't get any consideration from me for support and I have every reason to be disgusted with the death penalty.

[Jenksismyhero]

But it was done completely unnecessarily. Again, that's the major disconnect between torture that results from the DP and pain and suffering caused by war or incarceration in general. War is, unfortunately, sometimes necessary, and death and pain will result. The same is true for incarceration. But the death penalty is never actually a necessary thing.

 

Well now wait, if you're using this logic, jail time isn't always necessary either. Maybe in a small percentage of cases, but not the majority. Necessity isn't a relevant factor here. I get what you're saying, but again, take that argument to the extreme and there's no necessary reason to do half of what we do in the criminal justice system.

[Jenksismyhero]

Here's a bigger problem for you; a person like me.

 

I'm somewhat sympathetic on the death penalty in general. I think it can meet the 8th amendment standard, I don't think there's much good that comes from it...but if it gives the families of some crime victims some measure of "closure" for whatever that's worth I could be convinced that it's a tolerable evil.

 

But the only way I'd be willing to go along with it is if it's well administered. There has to be an overwhelming standard of guilt to avoid killing innocent people (which has almost certainly happened), it needs to be administered fairly/without the obvious racial biases that occur in cases right now, and it can't involve processes that clearly demolish the 8th amendment, as this case did.

 

If you don't care about how it happens when things go wrong, then you don't get any consideration from me for support and I have every reason to be disgusted with the death penalty.

 

I'm in agreement with you on the standards I would find acceptable. And I care, but only in the sense that this should be used as an example of how not to do things going forward. We should learn from it. We shouldn't stop the practice all together because this guy suffered for a few minutes before ultimately dying. That's all i'm saying.

[Balta1701]

I'm in agreement with you on the standards I would find acceptable. And I care, but only in the sense that this should be used as an example of how not to do things going forward. We should learn from it. We shouldn't stop the practice all together because this guy suffered for a few minutes before ultimately dying. That's all i'm saying.

Then this cannot be your reaction.

 

Boo. f***ing. Hoo.

 

 

 

It infuriates me that you people feel sympathy for these animals.

 

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

Then this cannot be your reaction.

 

Why? Like I said, I don't care that this guy suffered for a few minutes. He shouldn't have been subjected to it, but if it happens i'm certainly not going to lose sleep over it. And the response shouldn't be "this is a perfect example of why we should abolish the death penalty!" But it is.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[StrangeSox]

Well now wait, if you're using this logic, jail time isn't always necessary either. Maybe in a small percentage of cases, but not the majority. Necessity isn't a relevant factor here. I get what you're saying, but again, take that argument to the extreme and there's no necessary reason to do half of what we do in the criminal justice system.

 

We over-incarcerate in this country, especially for non-violent crimes, but I wouldn't agree that some form of incarceration (whether it's a full-on prison or some sort of rehabilitation for drug users) is only necessary in a small percentage of cases. Even then, we could expand from "necessary" to "serving a useful purpose" (removal from society for a period of time, deterrence) that the DP just doesn't really meet.

[StrangeSox]

Why? Like I said, I don't care that this guy suffered for a few minutes. He shouldn't have been subjected to it, but if it happens i'm certainly not going to lose sleep over it. And the response shouldn't be "this is a perfect example of why we should abolish the death penalty!" But it is.

 

I think people are more using it as an example of why lethal injection, despite often looking very peaceful and procedural, is inhumane. As I said before, I'm morally opposed to the DP, but some forms of it carry much less risk of unnecessary suffering (long-drop hanging by a competent hangman; guillotine) than other forms (LI, electrocution).

[Balta1701]

Sigh. At least he had a small enough caliber weapon that it didn't get to double digits, so we don't need to pretend to care about either mental health issues or access to guns.

[StrangeSox]

The Case for Reparations

Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole.

[Jenksismyhero]

Sigh. At least he had a small enough caliber weapon that it didn't get to double digits, so we don't need to pretend to care about either mental health issues or access to guns.

 

We should be concerned about women. That's why he did what he did. *shakes fist*

[Balta1701]

We should be concerned about women. That's why he did what he did. *shakes fist*

Ok. What steps should we take in response to the misogyny part of this?

[Jenksismyhero]

Ok. What steps should we take in response to the misogyny part of this?

 

Clearly the only answer is to cover up women from head to toe. Make them less desirable. Then crazy wack-jobs won't kill people for feeling rejected.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[Balta1701]

Clearly the only answer is to cover up women from head to toe. Make them less desirable. Then crazy wack-jobs won't kill people for feeling rejected.

Normally I'd expect me to be posting this to lampoon the fact that this seems easier than getting rid of the f***ing guns.

[bmags]

The Case for Reparations

 

I thought that should be its own thread.

[StrangeSox]

be the change you want to see!

 

edit: bumped this year-old thread I made for a similar but much shorter TNC article about the ghetto being public policy.

Edited May 27, 2014 by StrangeSox

[bmags]

I unfortunately only have time for one sentence sniping now.

 

I actually waited a bit and read it last night. It is very very depressing. I like that he used a specific neighborhood, heartbreaking it's in Chicago. BUt it does paint it out, how a neighborhood could fall apart when you are stripping the wealth out of the neighborhood and pushing vacancy of the housing all throughout. So evil.

 

I was wondering what I would do if I specifically was a grandson of the family that was the landlords of these neighborhoods.

[Jenksismyhero]

Normally I'd expect me to be posting this to lampoon the fact that this seems easier than getting rid of the f***ing guns.

 

Actually let's not blame women, let's blame white-man Hollywood!

 

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/05/27/...lywood-culture/

 

 

[Balta1701]

Actually let's not blame women, let's blame white-man Hollywood!

 

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/05/27/...lywood-culture/

I think the obvious solution is to castrate all males. After all, as this shooter so clearly stated, once a male has a gun the other thing is pretty much unnecessary anyway.

[Balta1701]

Is anyone else on lists that are getting these? I don't know who is writing the campaigns for the Democrats but I've hit the unsubscribe button on various lists like 3-4 different times in the past day motivated by this campaign.

[StrangeSox]

I'm not on any mailing lists, but Atrios has made a few comments on that:

 

http://www.eschatonblog.com/2014/05/from-bean-to-cup.html

 

 

From Bean to Cup

Two DCCC emails, about 3 hours apart.

 

first:

OBLITERATED

Inbox

x

DCCC Rapid Response Unsubscribe

 

2:54 PM (5 hours ago)

 

to me

 

Duncan --

 

We told you earlier that the Koch brothers have unveiled a master plan to spend $125 million this year to destroy Democrats.

 

Second:

throw in the towel

Inbox

x

Democratic Headquarters Unsubscribe

 

6:38 PM (2 hours ago)

 

to me

 

Duncan --

 

We’re beginning to think we should just throw in the towel.