The Democrat Thread

[StrangeSox]

lol

[caulfield12]

greg has found some great sources lately! newsmax, infowars, pamelagellar.com

 

Any relation to Sarah Michelle?

 

 

Surprised no Elizabeth Warren comments here.

 

Oprah?

 

 

[southsider2k5]

I'm not a sexist. I mean look, Carly ruined HP and I don't like these big-time CEOs of companies that get paid zillions of dollars when the little guy gets much less. Hillary? Geez. There are so many examples of her being just an elitist-type mean person. I don't want her in the White House, sorry. And ooops add Sarah Palin to my dislike/hate list. I mean I just don't like anything bout her, either. From her policies to her demeanor, me no likey Palin.

 

Now Elizabeth Dole?? I love her. Class act. Wonderful! Give me some more choices. Not Florina and Hilly for gosh sakes. I respect many many people on soxtalk. I just don't see how anybody who likes a good hot dog and beer and ballgame, a down and dirty Chicago southsider, can be for somebody who comes across as so non-chicago as Hilly!

 

Again, I will support women! Just not Hilly/Florina/Sarah.

 

Fiorina didn't ruin HP. The end of the PC market ruined HP. The meme that she did it is lazy at best.

[StrangeSox]

Buying Compaq, a consumer PC maker, at the end of the PC market certainly didn't help. Failing to get on to any of the emerging trends in tech because you were pursuing that boondoggle really didn't help.

 

Jeffery Sonnenfield has been critical of Fiorina since the 90's, and laid out his case again recently in Politico.

Edited September 24, 2015 by StrangeSox

[Quin]

I'm not a sexist. I mean look, Carly ruined HP and I don't like these big-time CEOs of companies that get paid zillions of dollars when the little guy gets much less. Hillary? Geez. There are so many examples of her being just an elitist-type mean person. I don't want her in the White House, sorry. And ooops add Sarah Palin to my dislike/hate list. I mean I just don't like anything bout her, either. From her policies to her demeanor, me no likey Palin.

 

Now Elizabeth Dole?? I love her. Class act. Wonderful! Give me some more choices. Not Florina and Hilly for gosh sakes. I respect many many people on soxtalk. I just don't see how anybody who likes a good hot dog and beer and ballgame, a down and dirty Chicago southsider, can be for somebody who comes across as so non-chicago as Hilly!

 

Again, I will support women! Just not Hilly/Florina/Sarah.

 

And as well all know, none of the Republican candidates are exhibiting elitist tendencies.

[southsider2k5]

Buying Compaq, a consumer PC maker, at the end of the PC market certainly didn't help. Failing to get on to any of the emerging trends in tech because you were pursuing that boondoggle really didn't help.

 

Dell has circled the exact same drain. If you think back to even 10 year ago and all of the names that were on PC's then, they are pretty much all gone. The market came and went.

[StrangeSox]

Dell has circled the exact same drain. If you think back to even 10 year ago and all of the names that were on PC's then, they are pretty much all gone. The market came and went.

 

The best you can say about Fiorina is that she wasn't solely responsible for HP's decline, but her major acquisition of another failing PC company definitely hastened it.

 

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/201...eld-2016-213163

 

edit: and her campaign's response to Sonnenfield's criticism was to libel him.

Edited September 24, 2015 by StrangeSox

[NorthSideSox72]

Fiorina didn't ruin HP. The end of the PC market ruined HP. The meme that she did it is lazy at best.

 

 

Dell has circled the exact same drain. If you think back to even 10 year ago and all of the names that were on PC's then, they are pretty much all gone. The market came and went.

 

While this is all true, the decision to acquire Compaq probably wasn't the best idea ever.

 

[southsider2k5]

The best you can say about Fiorina is that she wasn't solely responsible for HP's decline, but her major acquisition of another failing PC company definitely hastened it.

 

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/201...eld-2016-213163

 

edit: and her campaign's response to Sonnenfield's criticism was to libel him.

 

Consolidation in a declining industry is a pretty typical response. It gives the companies a chance to expand footprint, while cutting costs by eliminating duplicate operations and employees.

 

It just so happened that the technology changes that happened were way faster than imagined they would be. It ended up being a disaster, but that doesn't mean the logic behind it didn't have historical merit.

[StrangeSox]

Look at Sonnenfield's article. The merger was criticized heavily from when it was first proposed.

[bmags]

While this is all true, the decision to acquire Compaq probably wasn't the best idea ever.

 

Also "being an average CEO in a declining market" isn't exactly the typical private resume we've seen touted for president of the united states.

 

But her reputation as that CEO really wasn't good, it was a drag on her in the California gubernatorial race.

 

When the only relevant portion of your resume is "I did okay in a bad situation", not sure the desire to try and go straight to the top of government. Try actually winning a state race first.

[Balta1701]

Also "being an average CEO in a declining market" isn't exactly the typical private resume we've seen touted for president of the united states.

 

But her reputation as that CEO really wasn't good, it was a drag on her in the California gubernatorial race.

 

When the only relevant portion of your resume is "I did okay in a bad situation", not sure the desire to try and go straight to the top of government. Try actually winning a state race first.

If we're going to bring that up I cannot help but do this.

[southsider2k5]

Look at Sonnenfield's article. The merger was criticized heavily from when it was first proposed.

 

lol. I worked on the floor of an options exchange next to the crowd where HP was traded, and across from where Dell was traded when the merger was announced. I remember the atmosphere well without a spin article.

[southsider2k5]

Also "being an average CEO in a declining market" isn't exactly the typical private resume we've seen touted for president of the united states.

 

But her reputation as that CEO really wasn't good, it was a drag on her in the California gubernatorial race.

 

When the only relevant portion of your resume is "I did okay in a bad situation", not sure the desire to try and go straight to the top of government. Try actually winning a state race first.

 

As opposed to say the leader in the polls for the Republican nomination right now...

[StrangeSox]

lol. I worked on the floor of an options exchange next to the crowd where HP was traded, and across from where Dell was traded when the merger was announced. I remember the atmosphere well without a spin article.

 

 

I don't know why you'd call it a spin article, it's more of a recap of Sonnenfeld's criticisms of Fiorina's leadership at HP that go back over a decade. Sonnenfeld's background is business management, specifically executive leadership, and he's taught at both Harvard Business School and now Yale.

 

Fiorina had to fight a battle to get the merger approved within HP, and even then it was a close margin. Nothing from her tenure worked out, and even if "merge with other failing company in the same declining market" is conventional wisdom, it still doesn't really help her case. That would mean she showed no real leadership or innovation, and she still missed the boat on where the tech industry was going.

 

Now, so did a lot of people. There's lots of tech failures out there. But that doesn't make her any less of a failure. She engaged in some empire-building, made a bunch of money for herself and left HP-Compaq in terrible shape. If the options traders were excited about that merger, doesn't that say more about their abilities given how massively it failed?

[Y2Jimmy0]

I'm not a sexist. I mean look, Carly ruined HP and I don't like these big-time CEOs of companies that get paid zillions of dollars when the little guy gets much less. Hillary? Geez. There are so many examples of her being just an elitist-type mean person. I don't want her in the White House, sorry. And ooops add Sarah Palin to my dislike/hate list. I mean I just don't like anything bout her, either. From her policies to her demeanor, me no likey Palin.

 

Now Elizabeth Dole?? I love her. Class act. Wonderful! Give me some more choices. Not Florina and Hilly for gosh sakes. I respect many many people on soxtalk. I just don't see how anybody who likes a good hot dog and beer and ballgame, a down and dirty Chicago southsider, can be for somebody who comes across as so non-chicago as Hilly!

 

Again, I will support women! Just not Hilly/Florina/Sarah.

 

 

What about Elizabeth Warren? I like her.

[southsider2k5]

I don't know why you'd call it a spin article, it's more of a recap of Sonnenfeld's criticisms of Fiorina's leadership at HP that go back over a decade. Sonnenfeld's background is business management, specifically executive leadership, and he's taught at both Harvard Business School and now Yale.

 

Fiorina had to fight a battle to get the merger approved within HP, and even then it was a close margin. Nothing from her tenure worked out, and even if "merge with other failing company in the same declining market" is conventional wisdom, it still doesn't really help her case. That would mean she showed no real leadership or innovation, and she still missed the boat on where the tech industry was going.

 

Now, so did a lot of people. There's lots of tech failures out there. But that doesn't make her any less of a failure. She engaged in some empire-building, made a bunch of money for herself and left HP-Compaq in terrible shape. If the options traders were excited about that merger, doesn't that say more about their abilities given how massively it failed?

 

Read the "criticisms" again and tell me that half of those aren't things that every single politician does on a daily basis. You could write the exact same article about Donald Trump and Hilary Clinton too.

 

A good number of the stats that were quoted are misleading as well, and they definitely aren't comparing apples to apples. Again, I survived the era on a trading floor., I saw this stuff play out first hand. Lines like this one...

 

It’s true that many tech companies had trouble during this period of the Internet bubble collapse, some falling in value as much as 27 percent

 

... are compete trash. Some companies fell in value 27%? Sure. Many others during that era fell 100% and went bankrupt. Why forget those? That era of late 2001 into the middle 2000's were a blood bath for tech companies. The high flyers of 98-01 were the bankruptcies and desperation mergers of 2002 to 2005. Again taking a company in the same industry like Dell saw a huge hit to their bottom lines and stock prices during the same era.

[StrangeSox]

But what's the actual positive take-away from her tenure? What positive leadership can you point to?

[southsider2k5]

But what's the actual positive take-away from her tenure? What positive leadership can you point to?

 

I don't need to point to "positives" to recognize a hit piece type of article. That article was littered with misleading and wrong statistics, and woven with glittering generalities that can be applied to pretty much anyone in a position of power.

[StrangeSox]

Well, anyone who oversaw massive failure!

 

I'm not asking your opinion on that article. I'm asking your opinion on Fiorina and what contribution she had to HP's decline.

 

edit: as far as general consensus at the time on the merger, here's an old Bloomberg article on the internal revolt. Hewlett and others objected specifically because it was a merger that would expose them to the declining PC market. It isn't just hindsight to say it was a terrible move.

Edited September 24, 2015 by StrangeSox

[bmags]

There were plenty of tech companies trying to mask declines with mergers for revenue growth. I can't think of any working out. Notably, the CEO of Dell is not being hailed as a candidate for President.

 

Some people just are there at the right place/right time, others wrong place/wrong time. But others do truly extraordinary things, like Nikon transitioning from cameras to bio medical technology.

 

Everything she did just seemed like at best she'd be a competent manager of a company during stable times. But, I mean...I don't know how you could look at her time there as a positive.

[southsider2k5]

Well, anyone who oversaw massive failure!

 

I'm not asking your opinion on that article. I'm asking your opinion on Fiorina and what contribution she had to HP's decline.

 

edit: as far as general consensus at the time on the merger, here's an old Bloomberg article on the internal revolt. Hewlett and others objected specifically because it was a merger that would expose them to the declining PC market. It isn't just hindsight to say it was a terrible move.

 

My position is that the economy of the post-tech bubble and decline in the PC as the prominent technology had way more to do with HPs problems than the CEO did.

 

Historically it would be like blaming the airline CEO for going bankrupt after 911 and gas price explosion. It isn't to say she had no role, but this worst CEO ever stuff is so incredibly overblown to the point of ridiculousness, especially when a good chunk of this stupidity is coming from someone whose companies have filed for bankruptcy numerous times themselves.

[StrangeSox]

Ok, I think I could agree that blaming HP's downfall entirely on Fiorina is simplistic. She failed in a very, very tough environment, maybe an unwinnable one, but it still seems like the moves that she did make deserve some criticism in their own right.

[bmags]

I disagree that it was unwinnable. She had a firm full of smart people and engineers. It was likely unwinnable to force the PC market to continue to thrive, but finding hardware products to survive?

 

Again, ss, if your complaint is that she's not the worst ceo ever. I totally agree. In much the same way a president lucky enough to be around during an economic boom should not be considered a genius, a ceo taking over a company in a industry in freefall and not thriving is not an example of an idiot.

 

But I also don't think people are being revisionist here. Her tenure being controversial is not new. Compaq being seen as a poor purchase is not new. She was trying to hide poor performance by boosting revenue through a crappy merger...that's a very obvious move to make. ANd it failed...kind of predictably.

[Chisoxfn]

She will never win the presidency (and not, not because she was a women, but because of all the layoffs she had, etc...they will hammer her like the democrats hammered her in California). I also would point out I think in many cases a mediocre CEO is probably far better prepared to be a president and far smarter then most of our presidents. But I digress cause most normal CEO's would never want to be president.