The Democrat Thread

[Jenksismyhero]

"we" are, but I think there's a moral argument to be made that we shouldn't be! The obvious end of that slippery slope is pro-chattel slavery arguments, which people made plenty of along those same exact lines. So there has to be somewhere between "worker collectives in control of the means of production!" and the antebellum South/modern Qatar, and if we're talking about capital concentration, capital mobility, wage exploitation etc it's at least relevant to discuss where we should fall on that line.

 

I'm not saying there's an easy answer there, but saying "things would cost more if we paid people a fair wage!" isn't really a strong argument in my opinion (nor is it even necessarily true because it could also mean that we just have a little less hyper-concentration of wealth!)

 

I don't disagree, but the same people complaining about how rich certain people are would also complain when those rich people charge them even more for the good, probably more than they could reasonably afford. Exploitation of labor benefits everyone, not just the rich, so I dunno why that's part of the argument about the rich being too rich.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Jenksismybitch

[Jenksismyhero]

It's unfair that the majority of my income and your income is generally taxed at a much higher rate than the income of the very wealthy.

 

I don't disagree.

[StrangeSox]

I don't disagree, but the same people complaining about how rich certain people are would also complain when those rich people charge them even more for the good, probably more than they could reasonably afford. Exploitation of labor benefits everyone, not just the rich, so I dunno why that's part of the argument about the rich being too rich.

Not necessarily. Appalachian coal miners have earned crap wages and worked in terrible conditions for over a century, and their areas are still generally very poor and depressed. Manufacturing in this country has largely disappeared due to cheap overseas labor, taking with it a huge number of attainable, solid middle-class jobs that a couple of generations of Americans relied on. We get cheap electronic trinkets out of it, overall is the average American family more financially stable than they were a generation or two ago?

 

You are also assuming that companies could just raise prices at will, but that doesn't make a lot of sense. If the manufacturing costs of iPhones went up $50 because the workers were paid better and Apple could raise the price to $650, why wouldn't they just raise their price to $650 and make even more money? They're doing their shareholders a disservice if they don't!

[NorthSideSox72]

I would rather see the federal government spend money on programs to re-train adults to go from dying industries (like coal) to newer ones, than spend that same money to prop up dying industries (like coal) with subsidies that only postpone the inevitable and put the country behind the curve.

 

[bmags]

Job training doesn't really work. Your money would literally better spent just shutting down the coal factories and giving them a bunch of money than giving them "job training" for jobs that won't touch a 45 year old coal miner.

[StrangeSox]

Job training doesn't really work. Your money would literally better spent just shutting down the coal factories and giving them a bunch of money than giving them "job training" for jobs that won't touch a 45 year old coal miner.

Where Should All the Coal Miners Go?

The evidence on conventional job re-training programs is unimpressive, which is bad news for the thousands of coal workers who are likely to lose their jobs in the coming years.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Job training doesn't really work. Your money would literally better spent just shutting down the coal factories and giving them a bunch of money than giving them "job training" for jobs that won't touch a 45 year old coal miner.

I think that's an indictment of the method, not the principle. Of course, with any job training, some people won't make it. But with the right programs, others will. Whereas if you prop those failing businesses, the money is just going towards executives of failing industrial firms' pockets while workers are part of a dying firm's way of keeping wages down. re-training will have some success, the other has none.

 

And the economy as a whole is better with at least some of them transitioning, both due to the ability to move faster into new tech and having fewer people on various welfare programs.

 

[StrangeSox]

I think that's an indictment of the method, not the principle. Of course, with any job training, some people won't make it. But with the right programs, others will. Whereas if you prop those failing businesses, the money is just going towards executives of failing industrial firms' pockets while workers are part of a dying firm's way of keeping wages down. re-training will have some success, the other has none.

 

And the economy as a whole is better with at least some of them transitioning, both due to the ability to move faster into new tech and having fewer people on various welfare programs.

Part of the problem is that the jobs they'd be trained for aren't going to be anywhere near where they live. Not a lot of booming new industry in West Virginian coal towns, derelict Midwest factory towns like Flint or old timber towns in Oregon etc. Doesn't mean people can't move but uprooting your whole life and leaving your support structure (friends, families, neighbors) for tentative employment somewhere else isn't an easy task.

 

I don't disagree with what you're saying, it's just that there aren't any easy answers.

[NorthSideSox72]

Part of the problem is that the jobs they'd be trained for aren't going to be anywhere near where they live. Not a lot of booming new industry in West Virginian coal towns, derelict Midwest factory towns like Flint or old timber towns in Oregon etc. Doesn't mean people can't move but uprooting your whole life and leaving your support structure (friends, families, neighbors) for tentative employment somewhere else isn't an easy task.

 

I don't disagree with what you're saying, it's just that there aren't any easy answers.

Not looking for easy. Looking for better return on investment.

 

[bmags]

I think that's an indictment of the method, not the principle. Of course, with any job training, some people won't make it. But with the right programs, others will. Whereas if you prop those failing businesses, the money is just going towards executives of failing industrial firms' pockets while workers are part of a dying firm's way of keeping wages down. re-training will have some success, the other has none.

 

And the economy as a whole is better with at least some of them transitioning, both due to the ability to move faster into new tech and having fewer people on various welfare programs.

 

I would just prefer we do something radical here. We know job training has very little success. It's throwing away $100 for $1 worth of value.

 

I'd rather we just give that money to those people, have them spend it on: their own education, setting up a business, setting up a trade and EVEN paying down own debts, being lazy, alcoholics in the effort that perhaps we see a real improvement of outcomes for employment than we'd otherwise see, than open up some job training, telling 100 people to be a carpenter when the local economy can't create it.

[Cknolls]

Not necessarily. Appalachian coal miners have earned crap wages and worked in terrible conditions for over a century, and their areas are still generally very poor and depressed. Manufacturing in this country has largely disappeared due to cheap overseas labor, taking with it a huge number of attainable, solid middle-class jobs that a couple of generations of Americans relied on. We get cheap electronic trinkets out of it, overall is the average American family more financially stable than they were a generation or two ago?

 

You are also assuming that companies could just raise prices at will, but that doesn't make a lot of sense. If the manufacturing costs of iPhones went up $50 because the workers were paid better and Apple could raise the price to $650, why wouldn't they just raise their price to $650 and make even more money? They're doing their shareholders a disservice if they don't!

 

Appalachian coal miners? What are they? Narcissus obliterated them.

[StrangeSox]

Hi, welcome to the conversation! We're talking about job losses for coal miners!

[CrimsonWeltall]

Hi, welcome to the conversation! We're talking about job losses for coal miners!

 

Yeah, and that conversation is silly because Obama literally murdered all those coal miners.

[StrangeSox]

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/meet-th...he-world/"" target="_blank">Meet The 80 People Who Are As Rich As Half The World

Eighty people hold the same amount of wealth as the world’s 3.6 billion poorest people, according to an analysis just released from Oxfam. The report from the global anti-poverty organization finds that since 2009, the wealth of those 80 richest has doubled in nominal terms — while the wealth of the poorest 50 percent of the world’s population has fallen.

 

To see how much wealth the richest 1 percent and the poorest 50 percent hold, Oxfam used research from Credit Suisse, a Swiss financial services company, and Forbes’s annual billionaires list. Oxfam then looked at how many of the world’s richest people would need to pool their resources to have as much wealth as the poorest 50 percent — and as of March 2014, it was just 80 people.

 

Four years earlier, 388 billionaires together held as much wealth as the poorest 50 percent of the world.

[greg775]

This is funny.

Last night on CNN they said Obama had 40 percent approval rating, really low. Makes me laugh again because if he could run again he'd win in a landsllide. The liberal, Democrat media occasionally will mention how unpopular Obama is but oh my gosh when it was near election time, it was Obama mania all the time, every single day.

Cmon, folks. If he could run again he'd win in such a landslide. This country is Obama-crazy and Hillary crazy and pure Democrat crazy.

[StrangeSox]

The Corporate Takeover of the Red Cross

Red Cross CEO Gail McGovern, who was hired to revitalize the charity, has cut hundreds of chapters and thousands of employees.

 

A former AT&T executive who had taught marketing at Harvard Business School, McGovern pledged to make the tough choices that would revitalize the Red Cross, which was chartered by Congress to provide aid after disasters. In a speech five years ago, she imagined a bright future, a “revolution” in which there would be “a Red Cross location in every single community.’’

 

It hasn’t worked out that way.

 

McGovern and her handpicked team of former AT&T colleagues have presided over a string of previously unreported management blunders that have eroded the charity’s ability to fulfill its core mission of aiding Americans in times of need.

 

Under McGovern, the Red Cross has slashed its payroll by more than a third, eliminating thousands of jobs and closing hundreds of local chapters. Many veteran volunteers, who do the vital work of responding to local fires and floods have also left, alienated by what many perceive as an increasingly rigid, centralized management structure.

 

Far from opening offices in every city and town, the Red Cross is stumbling in response to even smaller scale disasters.

 

When a wildfire swept through three Northern California counties in September, the Red Cross showed up but provided shelter to just 25 of 1,000 victims at one site. Because of the charity’s strict rules and disorganization, many evacuees slept outside for over a week, even when the weather turned bad. “These families were sleeping in the rain with their children,” said Wendy Lopez, a local volunteer.

 

Local officials were so angry they relieved the Red Cross of its duties.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Fiorina made another objectively false claim in the debate this week, this time claiming that Obama forced General Keane out because he disagreed with the administration (she also claimed the same happened to Patreaus and McCrystal which is also silly). Keane retired in 2003. Fiorina's response? Dig in, admit nothing, claim to have the truth on your side.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/carly-fiori...ory?id=35808113

 

“No, I didn’t misspeak,” Fiorina told reporters today. “He has been someone of great experience who has been highly critical of the way this administration has not taken threats seriously and unfortunately he hasn’t been listened to and I would listen to him.

 

With that sort of intellectual prowess it's amazing that HP didn't do better under her tenure.

[bmags]

I mean what did Petraeus do that would cause anyone to force him out? Oh...right.

[MexSoxFan#1]

This is funny.

Last night on CNN they said Obama had 40 percent approval rating, really low. Makes me laugh again because if he could run again he'd win in a landsllide. The liberal, Democrat media occasionally will mention how unpopular Obama is but oh my gosh when it was near election time, it was Obama mania all the time, every single day.

Cmon, folks. If he could run again he'd win in such a landslide. This country is Obama-crazy and Hillary crazy and pure Democrat crazy.

It also has a lot to do with a lack of better options offered by the other side TBH.

 

Donald Trump, FFS

[StrangeSox]

Tennessee has charged a woman who attempted an abortion on herself with attempted first-degree murder.

 

http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local...&autologin=

A 31-year-old Murfreesboro woman was arrested Wednesday and charged with attempted first-degree murder after a failed attempt to end her pregnancy, according to a report from the Murfreesboro Police Department.

 

Anna Yocca of Swindon Circle is accused of using a coat hanger to end her pregnancy in September, Detective Tommy Roberts reported. She was 24 weeks into gestation.

 

Yocca was indicted by the Rutherford County grand jury in December and is being held in the Rutherford County Adult Detention Center on $200,000 bond. Her court date was set for Dec. 21.

 

Roberts reported Yocca filled a bathtub with water, “took a coat hanger and attempted to self-abort her pregnancy.” Because of the amount of blood, she “became concerned about her safety” and her boyfriend took her to Saint Thomas Rutherford Hospital.

[Jenksismyhero]

Tennessee has charged a woman who attempted an abortion on herself with attempted first-degree murder.

 

http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local...&autologin=

 

Good for Tennessee.

[StrangeSox]

A fetus is not a person hth

[Jenksismyhero]

A fetus is not a person hth

 

A 24 week viable fetus that lived and is now going to require extensive medical treatment because she stabbed him in the face and chest multiple times.

 

But Tennessee prosecutors are the bad guys here.

[StrangeSox]

Tennessee lawmakers and the lack of enforcement of roe from the Supreme Court are the bigger villains.

[Jenksismyhero]

Tennessee lawmakers and the lack of enforcement of roe from the Supreme Court are the bigger villains.

 

According to quick google researching, under Tennessee law she had up until 16 weeks to go to an approved clinic and get an abortion. She waited another 2 months and then tried to do it herself. And Roe doesn't protect her. It's a viable fetus at 24 weeks.