The Democrat Thread

[BigSqwert]

Yeah, that's a fallacy. This IS a center-right country, but it doesn't mean we are somehow predisposed to being Republican.

 

You continue to state that we are center-right. What are you basing that on exactly? Is it just your opinion?

[BigSqwert]

??? North Korea is communist/authoritarian, that's something altogether different actually. Socialist countries are like Germany and France.

 

My point is that you keep qualifying that we are center-right by comparing us to European countries. That just seems arbitrary to me in this discussion.

[lostfan]

You continue to state that we are center-right. What are you basing that on exactly? Is it just your opinion?

No, I explained it...

 

My point is that you keep qualifying that we are center-right by comparing us to European countries. That just seems arbitrary to me in this discussion.

...and you dismissed my explanation. How else can I say it? By center-right I mean on the full political spectrum, that's where our government is, and its policies. A month or two ago I posted a thread about where people are on the political spectrum and it showed where all the presidential candidates were on the scale, roughly. Even the "super-liberal" Barack Obama was on the right along with almost all the Democrats, but still well to the left of the Republicans. That's what I'm talking about. The socialist European countries are to the left of that. It really isn't arbitrary, it's entirely relevant here.

[kapkomet]

But a lot of people here would like to see us become a Eurpoean style of government sans coalition governments.

 

 

[lostfan]

But a lot of people here would like to see us become a Eurpoean style of government sans coalition governments.

IF our government and its electorate ever goes that far to the left and stays, then that's what we'll be, but until then, we're not.

[NorthSideSox72]

Not sure where this goes, so, here goes...

 

Bush's disapproval ratings are highest... ever. Higher than Nixon, post Watergate.

 

[Texsox]

Not sure where this goes, so, here goes...

 

Bush's disapproval ratings are highest... ever. Higher than Nixon, post Watergate.

 

Unfair, and the comparison is even worse. This is, IMHO, and opinion on the current state of the economy, and not really Bush. I'll repeat again, President receive too much credit and too much blame.

[lostfan]

It's not just the economy. That was just the straw that broke the camel's back, fair or not. He had laid the groundwork for being labeled a failure long before that. See his approval ratings before then.

Edited November 10, 2008 by lostfan

[bmags]

Not sure where this goes, so, here goes...

 

Bush's disapproval ratings are highest... ever. Higher than Nixon, post Watergate.

 

People willing to say they disapprove - highest ever...

People demanding accountability on illegal activities and stymied investigations - shockingly low...

[NorthSideSox72]

Unfair, and the comparison is even worse. This is, IMHO, and opinion on the current state of the economy, and not really Bush. I'll repeat again, President receive too much credit and too much blame.

While I agree that Presidents get far too much blame/credit for the economy, the reality is that this administration has been an abject disaster on so many things that its hard to count.

 

[Texsox]

While I agree that Presidents get far too much blame/credit for the economy, the reality is that this administration has been an abject disaster on so many things that its hard to count.

 

I guess I object the most to drawing Nixon into this, I think parallels to Carter or Bush the Greater would be better comparisons to Bush the Lesser.

[NorthSideSox72]

I guess I object the most to drawing Nixon into this, I think parallels to Carter or Bush the Greater would be better comparisons to Bush the Lesser.

It wasn't meant as an overall comparison - just illustrating how low he is in approval ratings by way of the 2nd worst.

 

[Balta1701]

Also, FWIW at this point, the President Elect starts with a 70/25 approval/disapproval rating.

 

In no small part because of how he took office I'm sure, the current debacle in chief started off about 15 points below that.

 

[StrangeSox]

While I agree that Presidents get far too much blame/credit for the economy, the reality is that this administration has been an abject disaster on so many things that its hard to count.

 

It's easier to count the things they didn't screw up.

[Balta1701]

While I agree that Presidents get far too much blame/credit for the economy, the reality is that this administration has been an abject disaster on so many things that its hard to count.

I really wonder if this isn't being said so much these days that the reverse is now true. Like when everyone says that "Player x is underrated" so often that they're now officially over-rated.

[Balta1701]

What in the world? Story about a meeting 4 years ago, where the current Decider met the man who would eventually replace him.

President Bush and President-elect Barack Obama are probably hoping their meeting Monday goes better than their first get-together, which left a bad taste in the mouths of both men.

 

Four years ago, Obama and other newly elected members of the Senate were invited to the White House for a breakfast meeting with Bush, who pulled the young Chicagoan aside.

 

"Obama!" Bush exclaimed, according to Obama's account of the meeting in his second memoir, "The Audacity of Hope." "Come here and meet Laura. Laura, you remember Obama. We saw him on TV during election night. Beautiful family. And that wife of yours -- that's one impressive lady."

 

The two men shook hands and then, according to Obama, Bush turned to an aide, "who squirted a big dollop of hand sanitizer in the president's hand."

 

Bush then offered some to Obama, who recalled: "Not wanting to seem unhygienic, I took a squirt."

 

The president then led Obama off to one side of the room, where Bush said: "I hope you don't mind me giving you a piece of advice."

 

"Not at all, Mr. President," Obama told the commander-in-chief.

 

"You've got a bright future," Bush said presciently. "Very bright. But I've been in this town awhile and, let me tell you, it can be tough. When you get a lot of attention like you've been getting, people start gunnin' for ya. And it won't necessarily just be coming from my side, you understand. From yours, too. Everybody'll be waiting for you to slip, know what I mean? So watch yourself."

 

Bush then noted that he and Obama had something in common.

 

"We both had to debate Alan Keyes," the president said. "That guy's a piece of work, isn't he?"

 

Obama laughed and even "put my arm around his shoulder as we talked," he recalled, although he added the gesture "might have made many of my friends, not to mention the Secret Service agents in the room, more than a little uneasy."

[NorthSideSox72]

What in the world? Story about a meeting 4 years ago, where the current Decider met the man who would eventually replace him.

Not sure what's so odd about that. Sounds about like what I'd expect from the both, except for maybe the whole hand sanitizer thing.

 

I read this originally in Obama's book, and it didn't strike me as nearly as interesting as the actual meal before and it's conversations.

 

[lostfan]

It's easier to count the things they didn't screw up.

I can count them on one hand I think. Many of the things he did right are cancelled out by something else.

 

- Sweeping, long-overdue overhauls of the intel community

- Did a whole lot for people with AIDS in Africa

- Leadership post 9-11 - eventually unraveled this but I will spot him this anyway

 

...I think that's about it actually.

[NorthSideSox72]

I can count them on one hand I think. Many of the things he did right are cancelled out by something else.

 

- Sweeping, long-overdue overhauls of the intel community

- Did a whole lot for people with AIDS in Africa

- Leadership post 9-11 - eventually unraveled this but I will spot him this anyway

 

...I think that's about it actually.

I started a thread like this a year or two ago in here - list ONLY positive things Bush has accomplished.

 

Some others I remember coming up:

 

--The designation of that large protected nature reserve in the Pacific

--His tax cuts, at least some of them anyway (that one is of course up for some debate)

 

[Balta1701]

I can count them on one hand I think. Many of the things he did right are cancelled out by something else.

 

- Sweeping, long-overdue overhauls of the intel community

- Did a whole lot for people with AIDS in Africa

- Leadership post 9-11 - eventually unraveled this but I will spot him this anyway

 

...I think that's about it actually.

Um...you may no more about some changes than things I know about (I guess you're talking about Human intelligence focusing at the lower levels or something like that), but from the CIA Black sites to Gitmo to "Enhanced interrogation techniques" to turning the NSA against the country's own citizens to the debacle that has been the creation of the DHS (a bipartisan clusterf*** btw)...I'm not sure how much credit I'm willing to give them on anything in terms of intelligence overhaul.

 

And the AIDS in Africa program could have been done vastly better. Between reinstating the global gag rule, insisting on abstinence-only education in exchange for U.S. funds, and the fact that the money for that program was found thanks to cutting the budgets for things like malaria prevention...I'm not too up on that either.

[NorthSideSox72]

On this topic, it should be noted how well the transition of power is going so far. Bush seems to be pushing hard for a smooth, complete transition. This is a legacy effort, and it may end up being added to his short list of positive accomplishments.

 

[Balta1701]

On this topic, it should be noted how well the transition of power is going so far. Bush seems to be pushing hard for a smooth, complete transition. This is a legacy effort, and it may end up being added to his short list of positive accomplishments.

Of course, some of that may be because Obama's team has been planning the transition for several months now and they've figured out the questions they need to ask to get ready.

 

On the other hand...it could well be that Bush did learn something 8 years ago. The 9/11 commission report directly links the fact that those attacks happened to the transition process between the 2 administrations and how that cut all of the Al Qaeda stuff out of the loop.

[lostfan]

Um...you may no more about some changes than things I know about (I guess you're talking about Human intelligence focusing at the lower levels or something like that), but from the CIA Black sites to Gitmo to "Enhanced interrogation techniques" to turning the NSA against the country's own citizens to the debacle that has been the creation of the DHS (a bipartisan clusterf*** btw)...I'm not sure how much credit I'm willing to give them on anything in terms of intelligence overhaul.

Those are things specific to his administration and his policies and that goes on his long list of failures along with the ways he politicized it leading up the war in Iraq. I'm mainly talking about the recommendations from the 9-11 commission and looking after the general long-term bureaucratic health of the whole thing, and what he's left for the Obama administration and beyond. It's MUCH better off than it was when he took office, it was such a clusterf*** then it wasn't even funny.

 

A couple of those things you're blowing out of proportion though and it sounds like you're getting your information from the Huffington Post.

[Balta1701]

Those are things specific to his administration and his policies and that goes on his long list of failures along with the ways he politicized it leading up the war in Iraq. I'm mainly talking about the recommendations from the 9-11 commission and looking after the general long-term bureaucratic health of the whole thing, and what he's left for the Obama administration and beyond. It's MUCH better off than it was when he took office, it was such a clusterf*** then it wasn't even funny.

 

A couple of those things you're blowing out of proportion though and it sounds like you're getting your information from the Huffington Post.

Which ones am I blowing out of proportion? Were we not flying around people on secret jets between CIA facilities so that no one would know where they are? Are we not holding people at Gitmo and refusing to release them even when their convictions have been overturned? Is the NSA program not designed to gather intelligence from reading the communications of American citizens? And how many times have we heard the phrase "Enhanced interrogation techniques?" That's a euphemism I really hope to never hear again.

[lostfan]

Which ones am I blowing out of proportion? Were we not flying around people on secret jets between CIA facilities so that no one would know where they are? Are we not holding people at Gitmo and refusing to release them even when their convictions have been overturned? Is the NSA program not designed to gather intelligence from reading the communications of American citizens? And how many times have we heard the phrase "Enhanced interrogation techniques?" That's a euphemism I really hope to never hear again.

Basically, what the DHS is (and isn't), and especially what the mission of the NSA is specifically when it relates to Intelligence Oversight laws that have been in place since the early Reagan administration. All the other stuff is true and deserves to be bashed but those 2 specific things have been distorted by the lefty blogosphere to make it sound like something sinister is going on and we've become a police state.