The Republican Thread

[Cknolls]

That would do the opposite of setting the stage for his re-election. IF they were trying to help with his re-election, they'd have the benefits kick in BEFORE the election.

 

 

Come on people we are smarter than this. The bill is a fraud. They cannot show the real cost over a ten year period because it is more than 2x the reported price.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Cknolls

[BigSqwert]

Come on people we are smarter than this. The bill is a fraud. They cannot show the real cost over a ten year period because it is more than 2x the reported price.

And you know this as fact how? Charles Krauthammer told you?

[NorthSideSox72]

Come on people we are smarter than this. The bill is a fraud. They cannot show the real cost over a ten year period because it is more than 2x the reported price.

That wasn't even what I was talking about - I was referring to your picture of the political calculus, which I felt was incorrect, though I may have misunderstood your point.

 

[Controlled Chaos]

Come on people we are smarter than this. The bill is a fraud. They cannot show the real cost over a ten year period because it is more than 2x the reported price.

You should have said we on the right.

[Cknolls]

And you know this as fact how? Charles Krauthammer told you?

 

 

Good One. I am hurt.

 

 

Why is the bill written the way it is then, genius?

[NorthSideSox72]

And you know this as fact how? Charles Krauthammer told you?

Well, again, they are all projections, no one knows any of this stuff for a FACT.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

You should have said we on the right.

LOL, yes, because only one party is smart.

 

[Balta1701]

I'm pretty sure I'd take the words of an actual economist over those of an assistant editor for Newsweek, on this topic. I'd also think the CBO has some idea of how math works.

 

Still though, the bill is a monster, and ALL of this is projections and guesswork. No way around that. And its not as if there is some loud chorus all favoring one side on this either. I'd be there are real cost savings there, but I'd also bet they won't be nearly as big as they are hoping. That would be pretty typical.

I'm going to outsource my reply.

That, however, is another way of saying that Congress can't cut health-care costs and the American government will go bankrupt. For one thing, that's not a very good reason not to at least try and avert that outcome. But if Broder's position is that we face certain fiscal collapse, then the only real question is whether we would prefer that 30 million Americans had insurance in the meantime, or went uninsured over that period.

 

More broadly, I'm confused by the budget hawks who that take the line: "This bill needs to cut the deficit, and I don't believe Democrats will cut the deficit, but since the actual provisions of the bill unambiguously cut the deficit, then I guess Congress won't stick to it."

 

People who want to cut the deficit should support this bill, and support its implementation. The alternative is no bill that cuts the deficit, and thus no hope of cutting the deficit.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'm going to outsource my reply.

I think they are mischaracterizing SOME of the budget hawks. Many of them, on this topic, are concered that the bill does not at all "unambiguously" decrease the deficit by the amounts being projected.

 

[southsider2k5]

I'm going to outsource my reply.

 

lol. So taking a bunch of money out of American's pockets is going to stop a bunch of money from coming out of American's pockets, because the government is going to do it for us. It isn't going to reduce anything because the costs associated with the government doing things isn't going to be less than what it would cost for medical care in the first place. The only way that they can make that happen is by driving a bunch of people out of business or reducing their wages by a large portion to make the numbers work, which is going to end up taking a bunch of money out of the economy again. It is such a circular argument here.

[Balta1701]

lol. So taking a bunch of money out of American's pockets is going to stop a bunch of money from coming out of American's pockets, because the government is going to do it for us. It isn't going to reduce anything because the costs associated with the government doing things isn't going to be less than what it would cost for medical care in the first place. The only way that they can make that happen is by driving a bunch of people out of business or reducing their wages by a large portion to make the numbers work, which is going to end up taking a bunch of money out of the economy again. It is such a circular argument here.

I still think it's remarkable that you guys can complain about the deficit on one hand and then defend the current system, that costs 1.5x as much per person as any other country on earh, at the same time, and not realize how those are 100% linked. Or even worse, still pretend that the private nature of our system is 100% innocent, when all the data screams the opposite.

[southsider2k5]

I still think it's remarkable that you guys can complain about the deficit on one hand and then defend the current system, that costs 1.5x as much per person as any other country on earh, at the same time, and not realize how those are 100% linked. Or even worse, still pretend that the private nature of our system is 100% innocent, when all the data screams the opposite.

 

Ok so who has said 100% innocent?

 

And for God's sake, let's quit pretending that a $12 trillion debt is some fault of health care. It isn't. That is complete crap.

[Y2HH]

Ok so who has said 100% innocent?

 

And for God's sake, let's quit pretending that a $12 trillion debt is some fault of health care. It isn't. That is complete crap.

 

It's more convenient for their argument that way.

[Balta1701]

Ok so who has said 100% innocent?

 

And for God's sake, let's quit pretending that a $12 trillion debt is some fault of health care. It isn't. That is complete crap.

You're correct, the current debt is not the fault of health care, because Medicare/Medicaid is funded by its own tax. If you wanted to blame that on any single government program you have to look at the defense department because it takes the biggest slice of discretionary spending. The problem is that the next $30 trillion IS the fault of health care.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Shocking that so many people jumped the gun on this one a couple months ago...

 

A Kentucky census worker found naked, bound with duct tape and hanging from a tree with “fed” scrawled on his chest killed himself but staged his death to make it look like a homicide, authorities said Tuesday.

 

Bill Sparkman, 51, was found Sept. 12 near a cemetery in a heavily wooded area of southeastern Kentucky. A man who found the body in the Daniel Boone National Forest has said Sparkman also was gagged and had an identification badge taped to his neck.

 

Authorities said Sparkman alone manipulated the scene to conceal a suicide. In a news release, police said he had talked with others about ending his life, though authorities did not say specifically who.

 

Sparkman had recently taken out two life insurance policies that would not pay out for suicide, authorities said. If Sparkman had been killed on the job, his family also would have been be eligible for up to $10,000 in death gratuity payments from the government.

 

He was not eligible for a separate life insurance policy through the government because his census work was intermittent, Census Bureau spokesman Stephen Buckner has previously said.

 

The Census Bureau suspended door-to-door interviews in the rural county after Sparkman’s body was found.

 

Anti-government sentiment was initially one possibility in the death. Authorities said Sparkman had discussed perceived negative views of the federal government in the area.

 

A friend of Sparkman’s, Gilbert Acciardo, previously told The Associated Press that he warned Sparkman to be careful when he did his census work. Acciardo, a retired Kentucky state trooper, said he told Sparkman people in the rural area would perceive him differently because he worked for the federal government.

 

Sparkman’s mother, Henrie Sparkman of Inverness, Fla., has said her son was an Eagle scout who moved to the area to be a local director for the Boy Scouts of America. He later became a substitute teacher in Laurel County and supplemented that income as a census worker.

 

Friends and co-workers have said that even while undergoing chemotherapy for cancer, Sparkman would show up for work smiling with a toboggan cap to cover his balding head. They said he was punctual and dependable.

[lostfan]

Ok so who has said 100% innocent?

 

And for God's sake, let's quit pretending that a $12 trillion debt is some fault of health care. It isn't. That is complete crap.

You can't trace the debt, or even the deficit, to any one thing, or even to one concept. It just is. There's probably 9 or 10 things that need to happen to control the deficit, none of them are popular.

[southsider2k5]

You can't trace the debt, or even the deficit, to any one thing, or even to one concept. It just is. There's probably 9 or 10 things that need to happen to control the deficit, none of them are popular.

 

Its not a great secret that the greatest outlays we have are security and social programs.

[Y2HH]

Its not a great secret that the greatest outlays we have are security and social programs.

 

You mean entitlements, which were once designed to help people when they were down and in their greatest need. You know, to get them back on the feet when the rest of the world would have let them die...today, they're designed to allow them to stay down.

[kapkomet]

And then chop off $700 billion, like the CBO says you should, over the next 20 years.

LMAO. You believe that s***?

 

[Balta1701]

LMAO. You believe that s***?

Either they're right or this country will be bankrupt in 10 years because its paying 25% of its GDP for health insurance.

[kapkomet]

Either they're right or this country will be bankrupt in 10 years because its paying 25% of its GDP for health insurance.

It will be, because they're wrong. The bill is written to lie on the numbers. You all want to believe this utopian "we can provide better health care, ensure all things are covered, add more people, while lowering costs" bulls***. It's impossible. If these numbers are true, our "health care system" will provide 25% of what it does today, and I'll take a higher cost for better health care, thank you. And for the billionth time, no one is saying don't fix what's broke, but a public take over is not the way out.

[Balta1701]

It will be, because they're wrong. The bill is written to lie on the numbers. You all want to believe this utopian "we can provide better health care, ensure all things are covered, add more people, while lowering costs" bulls***. It's impossible. If these numbers are true, our "health care system" will provide 25% of what it does today, and I'll take a higher cost for better health care, thank you. And for the billionth time, no one is saying don't fix what's broke, but a public take over is not the way out.

And for the billionth time, stating that this is a public takeover continues to reflect poorly on anyone who says it.

[kapkomet]

And for the billionth time, stating that this is a public takeover continues to reflect poorly on anyone who says it.

It is. Not all in one shot, but it is. So I guess I'm "reflect(ed) poorly".

[Balta1701]

It is. Not all in one shot, but it is. So I guess I'm "reflect(ed) poorly".

Quite frankly, yeah.

[kapkomet]

Quite frankly, yeah.

Ok, dude. It's just an option that outlaws private insurance for new enrollments or other changes or taxes the s*** out of it so that no one can afford it. Or you get fined and/or thrown in jail. But it's an option. I love semantics.