The Republican Thread

[bigruss]

There is also nothing to prove that it isn't, except your speculation.

This is eerie.

[NorthSideSox72]

There is also nothing to prove that it isn't, except your speculation.

Dude, seriously? This is like a 4th grade debate class. A guy who is some low level schmo in the Maharastra regional (think county) government throws out a number for the cost per day for a Presidential visit. This isn't some GAO guy, or someone who might actually... you know... know something.

 

The only speculation here is from that dude, and there is not one iota of evidence presented here to suggest that Obama's costs are any higher than the guy before him.

 

[StrangeSox]

What unsubstantiated claim am I making? Why don't you please enlighten me. I didn't write the article stating the 200 million and I haven't seen you get off your ass and show me something to prove it wrong.

 

 

There is also nothing to prove that it isn't, except your speculation.

 

You're making basic logical errors here.

 

The claim that it costs $200M is assertive, and it needs to be supported. It's not my position in the argument to refute s*** thrown at the wall.

[BigSqwert]

I must admit that this is a vital issue at most American's hearts. Hopefully lots of time and money is spent in Congress over the next 2 years to get to the bottom of this fiasco. Consider this priority #1.

Edited November 3, 2010 by BigSqwert

[southsider2k5]

Did you guys just intentionally ignore both the article and my post?

 

The quote comes from a guy who clearly would have no idea of such things.

 

And there is absolutely no reason to believe this cost is significantly greater than when Bush went to India. I mean, let's deal in some basic logic here. What would have changed? The basic needs are basically identical. Besides, the President himself has little to do with decisions of how security is handled - the USSS does that independently, and for good reason.

 

I can understand being upset that it costs $200M... if it actually did. But we have no reason to believe that is true, nor do we have any reason to believe its any higher than it was for the previous President.

 

I remember someone on this exact page, maybe in this exact forum ask me when the Republicians were going to quit blaming Clinton. I'd like to hear when the Dems will stop using Bush as a crutch. No matter what gets brought up about Obama, Bush gets brought up to excuse it.

[StrangeSox]

Dude, seriously? This is like a 4th grade debate class. A guy who is some low level schmo in the Maharastra regional (think county) government throws out a number for the cost per day for a Presidential visit. This isn't some GAO guy, or someone who might actually... you know... know something.

 

The only speculation here is from that dude, and there is not one iota of evidence presented here to suggest that Obama's costs are any higher than the guy before him.

 

I'm tempted to make a snarky comment about this being the Republican thread, but I'm above that.

[StrangeSox]

I remember someone on this exact page, maybe in this exact forum ask me when the Republicians were going to quit blaming Clinton. I'd like to hear when the Dems will stop using Bush as a crutch. No matter what gets brought up about Obama, Bush gets brought up to excuse it.

 

When there is manufactured outrage over (completely unsubstantiated) travel expenditures and claims that Obama is doing something uniquely expensive, why isn't it fair to examine if that claim has any merit by comparing him to the only comparable President?

 

You guys have done a much better job of demonstrating my point of rumor passing into fact better than I could have ever imagined. And it only took a handful of posts!

[BigSqwert]

Why was no one concerned when Bush spent $350M per day when traveling abroad. Some random guy told me that this was the case.

[Chisoxfn]

This totally reminds me of religious arguments...

Not really seeing it. There is actually articles talking about this being the case and no article saying that it isn't the case.

 

Science is something completely different. There is a lot of evidence available to prove people that science and evolution exists. They just choose to ignore it.

 

No one has shown me any evidence to tell me that I'm being ignorant here.

[bigruss]

I remember someone on this exact page, maybe in this exact forum ask me when the Republicians were going to quit blaming Clinton. I'd like to hear when the Dems will stop using Bush as a crutch. No matter what gets brought up about Obama, Bush gets brought up to excuse it.

I think there is a time and place to bring up past presidents though, and travel would be a pretty obvious choice to compare costs, right? It's not like we have a leak of quality information stating it costs X amount per day to fly the Air Force One, or security costs X amount internationally and X amount domestically. You'll have to look at the reports that we had during the last administration, and hopefully find that both sources are close enough to judge each other by.

[BigSqwert]

Not really seeing it. There is actually articles talking about this being the case and no article saying that it isn't the case.

 

No there haven't been. One random nobody claimed this "fact" and all the right wing pubs are parroting it as some sort of confirmed fact.

[NorthSideSox72]

I must admit that this is a vital issue at most American's hearts. Hopefully lots of time and money is spent in Congress over the next 3 years to get to the bottom of this fiasco. Consider this priority #1.

Ya know, if it really does cost $200M a day, I'd have no problem with someone looking into it.

 

But the very idea is absurd. I mean, do the math. The President travels probably 20% of the time, so that's about 70 days a year. Are you telling me it costs $14B a year for the President to travel? Do the math. The USSS Presidential detail, the ENTIRE detail, probably has 100-200 people in it, and that number can't magically be reduced because the President travels less often. So its a sunk cost. Same with AF1, it has to be there and in working order under any circumstances. So what are the variable costs?

 

--Fuel and basic service on AF1

--Personnel specifically attached to AF1 and other travel vehicles

--Accomodations on location for said staff

 

Look at those three bullet points and tell me, with a straight face, how that could possibly cost $200M per day. Come on, some of you guys work in the real business world, you have some idea what things cost. The very idea that the number is accurate is ridiculous on its face.

 

[bigruss]

Not really seeing it. There is actually articles talking about this being the case and no article saying that it isn't the case.

 

Science is something completely different. There is a lot of evidence available to prove people that science and evolution exists. They just choose to ignore it.

 

No one has shown me any evidence to tell me that I'm being ignorant here.

You have some random official making a claim that isnt backed up by anything (no documents, no expense reports, not even any crude math), and people are just accepting it because it's what they want to hear, it backs up their claims or makes another side look bad.

 

The other side dismisses it completely because it has no logic behind it.

 

There is an impasse at all coherent discussion because there is no proof for it, or against it.

[StrangeSox]

Not really seeing it. There is actually articles talking about this being the case and no article saying that it isn't the case.

 

Science is something completely different. There is a lot of evidence available to prove people that science and evolution exists. They just choose to ignore it.

 

No one has shown me any evidence to tell me that I'm being ignorant here.

 

Something being written down or someone making a claim isn't enough to support that claim. You really don't see the problem here?

[Balta1701]

Look at those three bullet points and tell me, with a straight face, how that could possibly cost $200M per day. Come on, some of you guys work in the real business world, you have some idea what things cost. The very idea that the number is accurate is ridiculous on its face.

The Air Force was spending something like $75 million/trip at the end of the Clinton years. That came out in one of the many, many, many investigations of the Clintons.

[Chisoxfn]

When there is manufactured outrage over (completely unsubstantiated) travel expenditures and claims that Obama is doing something uniquely expensive, why isn't it fair to examine if that claim has any merit by comparing him to the only comparable President?

 

You guys have done a much better job of demonstrating my point of rumor passing into fact better than I could have ever imagined. And it only took a handful of posts!

One big problem. This isn't the first time people have complained about the Obama administration having excel travel costs. Michelle Obama happened to have a huge trip to Spain where she brought out 40 of her best friends and did everything in 10 star style.

 

A lot of people have speculated how much the government picked up the tab because there are lots of loopholes to that matter. For pete sake people were calling her a modern day Marie Antoinette. And no, that isn't a compliment.

 

When people in this country are struggling to find jobs, etc, I find it ignorant to go flashing around you money and wealth when you are living in a home provided by us taxpayers (the white house).

 

But instead I see people flinging mud at Mike and I and comparing us to Carl Everett (who doesn't believe in dinosaurs).

 

[StrangeSox]

Ya know, if it really does cost $200M a day, I'd have no problem with someone looking into it.

 

But the very idea is absurd. I mean, do the math. The President travels probably 20% of the time, so that's about 70 days a year. Are you telling me it costs $14B a year for the President to travel? Do the math. The USSS Presidential detail, the ENTIRE detail, probably has 100-200 people in it, and that number can't magically be reduced because the President travels less often. So its a sunk cost. Same with AF1, it has to be there and in working order under any circumstances. So what are the variable costs?

 

--Fuel and basic service on AF1

--Personnel specifically attached to AF1 and other travel vehicles

--Accomodations on location for said staff

 

Look at those three bullet points and tell me, with a straight face, how that could possibly cost $200M per day. Come on, some of you guys work in the real business world, you have some idea what things cost. The very idea that the number is accurate is ridiculous on its face.

 

Bingo. If this number was even order-of-magnitude accurate, it has to be including those costs that would be paid anyway. Which was why I mentioned sitting around the WH not being free earlier.

 

[BigSqwert]

One big problem. This isn't the first time people have complained about the Obama administration having excel travel costs. Michelle Obama happened to have a huge trip to Spain where she brought out 40 of her best friends and did everything in 10 star style.

 

A lot of people have speculated how much the government picked up the tab because there are lots of loopholes to that matter. For pete sake people were calling her a modern day Marie Antoinette. And no, that isn't a compliment.

 

When people in this country are struggling to find jobs, etc, I find it ignorant to go flashing around you money and wealth when you are living in a home provided by us taxpayers (the white house).

 

But instead I see people flinging mud at Mike and I and comparing us to Carl Everett (who doesn't believe in dinosaurs).

 

You having nothing to back up your accusations other than hearsay.

[Chisoxfn]

Ya know, if it really does cost $200M a day, I'd have no problem with someone looking into it.

 

But the very idea is absurd. I mean, do the math. The President travels probably 20% of the time, so that's about 70 days a year. Are you telling me it costs $14B a year for the President to travel? Do the math. The USSS Presidential detail, the ENTIRE detail, probably has 100-200 people in it, and that number can't magically be reduced because the President travels less often. So its a sunk cost. Same with AF1, it has to be there and in working order under any circumstances. So what are the variable costs?

 

--Fuel and basic service on AF1

--Personnel specifically attached to AF1 and other travel vehicles

--Accomodations on location for said staff

 

Look at those three bullet points and tell me, with a straight face, how that could possibly cost $200M per day. Come on, some of you guys work in the real business world, you have some idea what things cost. The very idea that the number is accurate is ridiculous on its face.

Actually a government commission as well as a reporter tried looking into this very thing earlier in Obama's administration but were unable to get very far because the secret service would not release figures as to how much they have been spending. They felt it would be a threat to the presidents security.

[NorthSideSox72]

I remember someone on this exact page, maybe in this exact forum ask me when the Republicians were going to quit blaming Clinton. I'd like to hear when the Dems will stop using Bush as a crutch. No matter what gets brought up about Obama, Bush gets brought up to excuse it.

Why do I bother posting if you aren't actually reading my posts?

 

I am saying, clear as a bell, that the cost is THE SAME for each. How on any planet is that me saying its a crutch? My whole point here is that this is not an Obama issue, whatsoever, except when its convenient for Republicans. This is a reality of modern Presidential travel. Clinton was probably lower only because security probably got bigger after 9/11, so Bush is the best comparison.

 

Seriously, you guys are so far out in left field on this its ridiculous. You aren't functioning in reality. You are taking a number from a guy who clearly cannot possibly know, and which if you take even a minute to think about would realize is patently impossible... and then not only taking it on faith, but then applying it to Obama who has virtually no control over it!

 

[bigruss]

One big problem. This isn't the first time people have complained about the Obama administration having excel travel costs. Michelle Obama happened to have a huge trip to Spain where she brought out 40 of her best friends and did everything in 10 star style.

 

A lot of people have speculated how much the government picked up the tab because there are lots of loopholes to that matter. For pete sake people were calling her a modern day Marie Antoinette. And no, that isn't a compliment.

 

When people in this country are struggling to find jobs, etc, I find it ignorant to go flashing around you money and wealth when you are living in a home provided by us taxpayers (the white house).

 

But instead I see people flinging mud at Mike and I and comparing us to Carl Everett (who doesn't believe in dinosaurs).

LOL, really? Did you really go there?

 

I was comparing the legitimacy of this argument, on both sides, and you go directly to Carl Everett? That'll really help.

[Chisoxfn]

The Air Force was spending something like $75 million/trip at the end of the Clinton years. That came out in one of the many, many, many investigations of the Clintons.

What did that 75 million per trip cover? Did that cover security and everything or was that just the airfare portion?

 

[BigSqwert]

What did that 75 million per trip cover? Did that cover security and everything or was that just the airfare portion?

I believe peanuts were an additional cost per flight.

[StrangeSox]

One big problem. This isn't the first time people have complained about the Obama administration having excel travel costs. Michelle Obama happened to have a huge trip to Spain where she brought out 40 of her best friends and did everything in 10 star style.

 

A lot of people have speculated how much the government picked up the tab because there are lots of loopholes to that matter. For pete sake people were calling her a modern day Marie Antoinette. And no, that isn't a compliment.

 

When people in this country are struggling to find jobs, etc, I find it ignorant to go flashing around you money and wealth when you are living in a home provided by us taxpayers (the white house).

 

But instead I see people flinging mud at Mike and I and comparing us to Carl Everett (who doesn't believe in dinosaurs).

 

You're evading the issue and furthering my point. You and Mike are getting mud because you're failing basic logical reasoning.

 

Speculation isn't evidence. Expensive trips for Michelle Obama that may or may not have been picked up under the government tab (more speculation! more unsupported assertions!) is not evidence for the cost of Obama's trip to India. Conservative talking heads and blogs calling her names isn't evidence for the cost of Obama's trip to India.

 

A sitting President traveling to an important foreign country isn't "flashing around money and wealth". This is another meaningless partisan attack, and, again, unsupported.

 

You've done a phenomenal job of demonstrating just how quickly random bulls*** with little or no support gets moved into cold, hard facts.

[StrangeSox]

Actually a government commission as well as a reporter tried looking into this very thing earlier in Obama's administration but were unable to get very far because the secret service would not release figures as to how much they have been spending. They felt it would be a threat to the presidents security.

 

This neither supports nor refutes your claims and this random $200M claim.