The Republican Thread

[NorthSideSox72]

Actually a government commission as well as a reporter tried looking into this very thing earlier in Obama's administration but were unable to get very far because the secret service would not release figures as to how much they have been spending. They felt it would be a threat to the presidents security.

And you think Joe Schmo in India knows?

 

This is the USSS, they are in my experience the most competent and precise of the federal LE branches. They don't f*** around and they don't change their security schemes based on Presidential desires. They follow protocols. There is basically no chance that Obama has changed any of their procedures or costs in any material way.

 

Now, is it possible that the Obamas are bringing a few more friends along for the ride? Maybe, I have no idea. But they would not be getting Presidential security protection on their own. The added costs would be mircoscopic on this scale.

 

If you told me, Obama brings 50% more buddies with on his 5-6 int'l trips a year, costing the taxpayers a million extra dollars, I'd believe it. And it would annoy me, and set a bad example. It would not, could not possibly, cost a 9 figure number per day more.

 

[Balta1701]

What did that 75 million per trip cover? Did that cover security and everything or was that just the airfare portion?

I was googling this yesterday when y 'all first brought it up. I believe that was JUST the Air Force's portion; the planes, the people in the air force, etc. is The Secret Service part is probably a Presidential Secrets issue.

 

It's not just air force one that goes on these, it's dozens of planes carrying equipment, security, additional personnel needed to operate the white house, trade personnel, economic personnel, probably corporate donors, people with economic interests in the trip, etc.

 

I find the $200 million figure entirely reasonable. And I couldn't possibly care less.

[Chisoxfn]

No there haven't been. One random nobody claimed this "fact" and all the right wing pubs are parroting it as some sort of confirmed fact.

Whoah, I'm not confirming it as fact. I flat out think it is ridiculous to even come close to spending 200 million. But you know what, when this came out, I damn well want to hear a comment from our white house confirming, denying, talking about it.

 

This number is staggering and you guys are all here either saying it didn't happen or try to defend the actual cost. If this did happen (whether Bush or Obama) and we are spending this much to travel internationally, than as far as I'm concerned we need to take a serious look into how much international travel we want to get our president into.

 

Do you guys realize what 1 billion dollars (5 day trip x 200 million per day) could do in this world. Think about those dollar a day you can feed a child advertisements.

 

It is absolutely ridiculous.

 

So what I want to know is for those of you defending the costs, do you really feel that it is worth it for us to spend this much money for our president to travel abroad?

 

And for those of you telling me and Mike that we are making up s***, I ask, since it made public print media and evidently came from someone with at least some authority in India (whether that is very little or a lot, I'm not getting into that), don't we as citizens deserve to hear and get a straight answer? Personally, until I get a straight answer I will only have to assume that there could potentially be some truth to this.

[NorthSideSox72]

I was googling this yesterday when y 'all first brought it up. I believe that was JUST the Air Force's portion; the planes, the people in the air force, etc. is The Secret Service part is probably a Presidential Secrets issue.

 

It's not just air force one that goes on these, it's dozens of planes carrying equipment, security, additional personnel needed to operate the white house, trade personnel, economic personnel, probably corporate donors, people with economic interests in the trip, etc.

 

I find the $200 million figure entirely reasonable. And I couldn't possibly care less.

You are actually missing the point here. Most of those costs you mention are fixed costs, that the government has to take on regardless of whether or not he makes 1 or 5 or 10 trips a year overseas. The incremental cost cannot possibly be on that scale.

 

[Chisoxfn]

And you think Joe Schmo in India knows?

 

This is the USSS, they are in my experience the most competent and precise of the federal LE branches. They don't f*** around and they don't change their security schemes based on Presidential desires. They follow protocols. There is basically no chance that Obama has changed any of their procedures or costs in any material way.

 

Now, is it possible that the Obamas are bringing a few more friends along for the ride? Maybe, I have no idea. But they would not be getting Presidential security protection on their own. The added costs would be mircoscopic on this scale.

 

If you told me, Obama brings 50% more buddies with on his 5-6 int'l trips a year, costing the taxpayers a million extra dollars, I'd believe it. And it would annoy me, and set a bad example. It would not, could not possibly, cost a 9 figure number per day more.

I have done some research on the number of people coming along and I've found some random commentaries talking about the bigger groups that come with Obama versus Bush but I haven't been able to quantify it to a large extent.

 

But I will say this, if you double the size of staff/advisors or whomever the hell is coming on this trecks and the government is paying for it, well that would have a significant impact on the costs. Sure, there are sunk costs, but the more people the more involved the security has to be and the larger the security costs.

[BigSqwert]

Whoah, I'm not confirming it as fact. I flat out think it is ridiculous to even come close to spending 200 million. But you know what, when this came out, I damn well want to hear a comment from our white house confirming, denying, talking about it.

So now the White House to address every single accusation thrown at it? That could be a 24/7 job on its own.

[Balta1701]

So now the White House to address every single accusation thrown at it? That could be a 24/7 job on its own.

Welcome to the post 2010 election world.

[NorthSideSox72]

And for those of you telling me and Mike that we are making up s***, I ask, since it made public print media and evidently came from someone with at least some authority in India (whether that is very little or a lot, I'm not getting into that), don't we as citizens deserve to hear and get a straight answer? Personally, until I get a straight answer I will only have to assume that there could potentially be some truth to this.

 

1. You honestly think that some regional government hack in India has ANY idea what this costs, when you said yourself that even government commissions couldn't get that number? Seriously? If you do, then really, there is no chance of reasonable discussion on this, because I could tell you that I think the next lottery number in Finland's jackpot is 1234, and I'd have an equal chance of getting it right.

 

2. I would not expect Bush, Obama, or any other President to "answer" to something so obviously ridiculous.

 

[bigruss]

Whoah, I'm not confirming it as fact. I flat out think it is ridiculous to even come close to spending 200 million. But you know what, when this came out, I damn well want to hear a comment from our white house confirming, denying, talking about it.

 

This number is staggering and you guys are all here either saying it didn't happen or try to defend the actual cost. If this did happen (whether Bush or Obama) and we are spending this much to travel internationally, than as far as I'm concerned we need to take a serious look into how much international travel we want to get our president into.

 

Do you guys realize what 1 billion dollars (5 day trip x 200 million per day) could do in this world. Think about those dollar a day you can feed a child advertisements.

 

It is absolutely ridiculous.

 

So what I want to know is for those of you defending the costs, do you really feel that it is worth it for us to spend this much money for our president to travel abroad?

 

And for those of you telling me and Mike that we are making up s***, I ask, since it made public print media and evidently came from someone with at least some authority in India (whether that is very little or a lot, I'm not getting into that), don't we as citizens deserve to hear and get a straight answer? Personally, until I get a straight answer I will only have to assume that there could potentially be some truth to this.

It's a valid point to bring up, and should be answered in some light (how detailed they can get I have no idea).

 

But to take some low-level, county official in India as a valid source is ludicrous. I'm sure the 15th district of Illinois representative knows intimate details on how much it costs for the President to travel.

 

It's all about analyzing the source, and making claims like it is legit. If you want answers, fine, ask the questions! That guy threw out a hypothesis and you took it as fact before it was even proven.

[Balta1701]

You are actually missing the point here. Most of those costs you mention are fixed costs, that the government has to take on regardless of whether or not he makes 1 or 5 or 10 trips a year overseas. The incremental cost cannot possibly be on that scale.

Really? None of those planes have a $50 million price tag. If you're including the actual, total costs of the equipment, then the pricetag is going to go through the roof.

 

What the figures in the Air Force's n umbers probably refer to is some combination of the incremental costs and the depreciation of the equipment. Of course...if one wanted to, one could argue that usage of that equipment by policiticians requires the air force to have much more of it in their inventory than they otherwise would, since you don't want a presidential trip to affect actual military readiness.

 

That said...I still couldn't care less.

[NorthSideSox72]

Really? None of those planes have a $50 million price tag. If you're including the actual, total costs of the equipment, then the pricetag is going to go through the roof.

 

What the figures in the Air Force's n umbers probably refer to is some combination of the incremental costs and the depreciation of the equipment. Of course...if one wanted to, one could argue that usage of that equipment by policiticians requires the air force to have much more of it in their inventory than they otherwise would, since you don't want a presidential trip to affect actual military readiness.

 

That said...I still couldn't care less.

The only way that those planes are a variable cost is if you want to say the President should never travel by air, and should never have the ability to quickly get airborne.

 

[StrangeSox]

Whoah, I'm not confirming it as fact. I flat out think it is ridiculous to even come close to spending 200 million. But you know what, when this came out, I damn well want to hear a comment from our white house confirming, denying, talking about it.

 

Why? Why should the White House address random claims of some minor Indian politician that have gotten the right wing in a tizzy?

 

This number is staggering and you guys are all here either saying it didn't happen or try to defend the actual cost. If this did happen (whether Bush or Obama) and we are spending this much to travel internationally, than as far as I'm concerned we need to take a serious look into how much international travel we want to get our president into.

 

Do you guys realize what 1 billion dollars (5 day trip x 200 million per day) could do in this world. Think about those dollar a day you can feed a child advertisements.

 

It is absolutely ridiculous.

 

Think about those dollars, try to imagine what they could actually be spending a billion dollars in a week on. Don't give this claim credulity because you don't like Obama and agree with the "He's wasting our money" narrative.

 

So what I want to know is for those of you defending the costs, do you really feel that it is worth it for us to spend this much money for our president to travel abroad?

We do not know what the costs are.

 

And for those of you telling me and Mike that we are making up s***, I ask, since it made public print media and evidently came from someone with at least some authority in India (whether that is very little or a lot, I'm not getting into that), don't we as citizens deserve to hear and get a straight answer? Personally, until I get a straight answer I will only have to assume that there could potentially be some truth to this.

 

I'm sorry, that's just bad reasoning. You should be skeptical of claims and reject them until their is support. This is just conspiracy theory bulls*** logic.

 

[Controlled Chaos]

About 3,000 people including Secret Service agents, US government officials and journalists would accompany the President. Several officials from the White House and US security agencies are already here for the past one week with helicopters, a ship and high-end security instruments.

 

s*** adds up.

 

US President Barack Obama's trip to India next month is set to be the biggest ever by any US president in terms of the protocol and logistics.

 

Headlines Today accessed the details of elaborate arrangements that will be in place to guard Obama during his three-day trip beginning on November 6. He will be accompanied by US first lady Micehlle Obama and their daughters Malia and Sasha.

Earlier, Obama's daughters Sasha and Malia were not to be part of the trip. But sources revealed that Michelle's opinion prevailed and now the girls would accompany the first American couple to India.

 

The US president will make a historic trip to the Taj Mahal along with his family on November 7. His visit is historic in terms of logistics which is the largest ever for a visiting US president.

 

Elaborate security arrangements

 

The presidential entourage will have 40 aircraft, including the Air Force One that will ferry the president. There will be six armoured cars, including the Barack Mobile, a Cadillac.

 

The Cadillac limousine is equipped with a mini communication centre to enable Obama to be in touch with the White House, US vice president and the US strategic command. It also has the US nuke launch codes and the nuclear switch for the president. It can also withstand a chemical or germ warfare or even a bomb attack.

 

The secret service will set up two command posts in Delhi and Mumbai which will act as the communication nerve centres. These centres will keep an eye on each movement by the president with real time satellite monitoring.

 

Three Marine One choppers will be reassembled in India to ferry Obama and his family. These helicopters will also assist in evacuation in case of an emergency.

 

Moreover, 30 sniffer dogs will be put on service to boost the security arrangements during Obama's visit.

[Chisoxfn]

You're evading the issue and furthering my point. You and Mike are getting mud because you're failing basic logical reasoning.

 

Speculation isn't evidence. Expensive trips for Michelle Obama that may or may not have been picked up under the government tab (more speculation! more unsupported assertions!) is not evidence for the cost of Obama's trip to India. Conservative talking heads and blogs calling her names isn't evidence for the cost of Obama's trip to India.

 

A sitting President traveling to an important foreign country isn't "flashing around money and wealth". This is another meaningless partisan attack, and, again, unsupported.

 

You've done a phenomenal job of demonstrating just how quickly random bulls*** with little or no support gets moved into cold, hard facts.

The expensive security coverage of traveling abroad was at the very least picked up by Obama. And if you look at the itemized portions of that trip it was insane.

 

So ya, there are quite a lot of facts to back me up on Michelle's luxurious spanish vacation.

[StrangeSox]

1. You honestly think that some regional government hack in India has ANY idea what this costs, when you said yourself that even government commissions couldn't get that number? Seriously? If you do, then really, there is no chance of reasonable discussion on this, because I could tell you that I think the next lottery number in Finland's jackpot is 1234, and I'd have an equal chance of getting it right.

 

2. I would not expect Bush, Obama, or any other President to "answer" to something so obviously ridiculous.

 

This has been, imo, an excellent of microcosm of how conservative talk radio/Fox News operates. Random, unconfirmed and/or fabricated rumors and speculation quickly turn to fact. Rumors and speculation are used to support other rumors. Claims are given credulity unless disproved.

[Chisoxfn]

1. You honestly think that some regional government hack in India has ANY idea what this costs, when you said yourself that even government commissions couldn't get that number? Seriously? If you do, then really, there is no chance of reasonable discussion on this, because I could tell you that I think the next lottery number in Finland's jackpot is 1234, and I'd have an equal chance of getting it right.

 

2. I would not expect Bush, Obama, or any other President to "answer" to something so obviously ridiculous.

Whoah, at what point did I ever say this number was pure fact. You all are just assuming I did. I did say show me something which disputes it or proves it to not be true. And as far as I'm concerned that is a valid argument.

 

I'm just not going to take this article and throw it out and ignore what could be a potentially staggering nugget. 200 million per day!!!

 

Balta at least answered one of my questions and he personally has no issue with that cost. That is fine and I think there is a bigger debate that could be had on that issue. But all I hear are posters (and you are not one of them) being pompous, sarcastic, jackasses acting as if myself or Mike isn't entitled to our opinions.

[StrangeSox]

The expensive security coverage of traveling abroad was at the very least picked up by Obama.

Should Michelle not travel?

 

And if you look at the itemized portions of that trip it was insane.

 

I haven't seen them. Can you provide a link?

 

So ya, there are quite a lot of facts to back me up on Michelle's luxurious spanish vacation.

 

Which is irrelevant to this $200M figure.

 

[Chisoxfn]

It's a valid point to bring up, and should be answered in some light (how detailed they can get I have no idea).

 

But to take some low-level, county official in India as a valid source is ludicrous. I'm sure the 15th district of Illinois representative knows intimate details on how much it costs for the President to travel.

 

It's all about analyzing the source, and making claims like it is legit. If you want answers, fine, ask the questions! That guy threw out a hypothesis and you took it as fact before it was even proven.

At one point did I ever say it was fact? I said it begs questions to be answered and given that it is being bantied about by significant news outlets (and not that doesn't make it a fact) makes it something that the current administration should consider talking about.

[StrangeSox]

Whoah, at what point did I ever say this number was pure fact. You all are just assuming I did. I did say show me something which disputes it or proves it to not be true. And as far as I'm concerned that is a valid argument.

 

I'm sorry, but it is not a valid argument.

[BigSqwert]

At one point did I ever say it was fact? I said it begs questions to be answered and given that it is being bantied about by significant news outlets (and not that doesn't make it a fact) makes it something that the current administration should consider talking about.

These news outlets are all repeating the same thing from the same source. Where are the facts to back up this claim?

[StrangeSox]

At one point did I ever say it was fact? I said it begs questions to be answered and given that it is being bantied about by significant news outlets (and not that doesn't make it a fact) makes it something that the current administration should consider talking about.

 

Obama being a Kenyan Muslim usurper is "bandied about by significant news outlets".

[Chisoxfn]

This has been, imo, an excellent of microcosm of how conservative talk radio/Fox News operates. Random, unconfirmed and/or fabricated rumors and speculation quickly turn to fact. Rumors and speculation are used to support other rumors. Claims are given credulity unless disproved.

Seriously? Get the f*** out. You seriously are going to go out and post this and act as if your blessed democratic party is just perfect and that its just the big bad conservative pundits. Give me a freaking break.

[StrangeSox]

These news outlets are all repeating the same thing from the same source. Where are the facts to back up this claim?

 

Some form of the f***** fallacy (The f***** fallacy is a belief that multiple pieces of suspect or weak evidence provide strong evidence when bundled together), perhaps.

 

Circular reasoning, at least.

[StrangeSox]

Seriously? Get the f*** out. You seriously are going to go out and post this and act as if your blessed democratic party is just perfect and that its just the big bad conservative pundits. Give me a freaking break.

 

I don't like the Democrats much.

 

I'm going to seriously post that as an example of how it works, and I predicted it. You're using poor reasoning to accept specious claims because you like the claims. You've already tried to shift the burden multiple times. This is how misleading, untruthful political rhetoric works, and it's a hallmark of conservative media.

[Chisoxfn]

Should Michelle not travel?

 

 

 

I haven't seen them. Can you provide a link?

 

 

 

Which is irrelevant to this $200M figure.

Lets see, a pattern of overspending. I'd find that pretty damn relevant.

 

Evidence is out there. Does anyone have enough answers at this point, no, but I don't pretend to bury my hand in the sand and just throw stuff out and act as if nothing is there. At the very least hearing the White House plausibly deny it or state it is true and that it is consistent with historic travel costs at the very least.

 

Either way it begs the question why won't the administration address it and if it is true, how important is it to bring the president and his family, entourage, etc to India for 5 days and visit all these marvelous places.