The Republican Thread

[StrangeSox]

Let's just have the government print money for everyone! Problem solved. Socialism FTW.

 

Let's not have massive wealth accumulation and hording among a tiny, tiny fraction of the population.

 

But that's not exactly directly addressing my comments on workplace and employee rights.

 

You don't need a dime to bring an ADA claim.

 

You need to be able to pay a competent lawyer if you're trying to sue any non-small business employer that has a legal team. Plus it's still ridiculously hard to prove ageism since the company will find some BS reasons to fire you.

[southsider2k5]

If you want to talk about a real waste of resources, lets talk about special education and how much money is spent on each student.

 

/crickets

 

Argh damn once again no one wants to be the bad guy.

 

It is federal law that everyone has to be educated through at least age 16. School systems have no choice unless federal law changes.

[Jenksismyhero]

If you want to talk about a real waste of resources, lets talk about special education and how much money is spent on each student.

 

/crickets

 

Argh damn once again no one wants to be the bad guy.

 

In the grand scheme I'm not sure those costs are really that much. But what's that have to do with the tenure system?

[StrangeSox]

Let's hope federal law never changes so that we don't start throwing the disadvantaged under the bus in the name of lower taxes.

 

That's also one of the slight-of-hands used to trump up charter school successes; those schools don't have to take special education (read: resource-intensive) children.

[StrangeSox]

In the grand scheme I'm not sure those costs are really that much. But what's that have to do with the tenure system?

 

Special education kids cost a whole lot more to educate.

 

It has as much to do with the tenure system as any of ss2k5's posts. I'm still waiting for an explanation on how our system is different and why that explains differences in outcomes.

[Jenksismyhero]

Let's not have massive wealth accumulation and hording among a tiny, tiny fraction of the population.

 

But that's not exactly directly addressing my comments on workplace and employee rights.

 

 

See, there's the difference to me. You don't get "mass wealth accumulation" by adding people to the government payroll. You get people that become dependent on the government for more and more. Clearly poverty in this country has dropped to low levels after the government swooped in with assistance.

 

And for the record, i'm not opposed to some social services and assistance. I just don't think it's some fundamental role that government ought to play for lifetimes like the system we have now. People in public housing in Chicago are generational. That's a problem.

 

You need to be able to pay a competent lawyer if you're trying to sue any non-small business employer that has a legal team. Plus it's still ridiculously hard to prove ageism since the company will find some BS reasons to fire you.

 

Nope. ADA cases are taken on contingency. You don't need a dime.

[Jenksismyhero]

Special education kids cost a whole lot more to educate.

 

It has as much to do with the tenure system as any of ss2k5's posts. I'm still waiting for an explanation on how our system is different and why that explains differences in outcomes.

 

I don't doubt it is more expensive, but what percent of the educational system is for special needs? 3%? 6%? Can't be much more than that.

[StrangeSox]

I don't doubt it is more expensive, but what percent of the educational system is for special needs? 3%? 6%? Can't be much more than that.

 

It's about 13% of total enrollment. The cost-per-pupil is significantly higher, $24k vs $10k annually, at least in Hawaii

[Soxbadger]

I don't doubt it is more expensive, but what percent of the educational system is for special needs? 3%? 6%? Can't be much more than that.

 

Its way more.

 

I only have anecdotal evidence but New Trier had to pay $200k a year for a single student to be shipped to a special Ohio school. The regular special ed rooms have at least 5 teachers for about 8-12 students. The regular expenditures are pretty insane.

 

And yes I understand its federal (this is answering SS2k), but its still something that can be fixed.

 

As for tenure, I dont think its necessary. But if youre a school system and you foolishly bargained, thats your fault. Unions were once very important, but they have lost their way.

[StrangeSox]

More and more school districts are mainstreaming special ed these days, meaning that the students are in a regular classroom but with a one-on-one aid.

[southsider2k5]

In the grand scheme I'm not sure those costs are really that much. But what's that have to do with the tenure system?

 

They cost A LOT more to educate.

[southsider2k5]

Special education kids cost a whole lot more to educate.

 

It has as much to do with the tenure system as any of ss2k5's posts. I'm still waiting for an explanation on how our system is different and why that explains differences in outcomes.

 

That's funny, so am I.

[southsider2k5]

Its way more.

 

I only have anecdotal evidence but New Trier had to pay $200k a year for a single student to be shipped to a special Ohio school. The regular special ed rooms have at least 5 teachers for about 8-12 students. The regular expenditures are pretty insane.

 

And yes I understand its federal (this is answering SS2k), but its still something that can be fixed.

 

As for tenure, I dont think its necessary. But if youre a school system and you foolishly bargained, thats your fault. Unions were once very important, but they have lost their way.

 

No one is ever going to vote to stop educating special education kids.

 

[StrangeSox]

That's funny, so am I.

 

That's bizarre. You were the one who made the argument that our tenure system has a negative impact on our educational outcomes when measured against other countries, so I had assumed you had some sort of evidence or reasoning to support that.

[StrangeSox]

No one is ever going to vote to stop educating special education kids.

....good?

[Soxbadger]

I will.

 

haha

 

Its seemingly ridiculous to have a teacher with 2 masters taking a single kid to a store so that they can bag groceries to learn "life skills". Im sorry, but a line has to be drawn somewhere.

 

And unions are a gift and a curse. No teacher wants to say it, but part of the reason the whole profession is screwed is unions. Automatic increase in salary for master degrees is screwing new teachers who come out overqualified. They cant just walk in and say "I know youre supposed to pay me X, but Ill take Y." The reason, the school is bound to the union contract and cant pay a teacher less, even if the teacher agrees.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Soxbadger

[southsider2k5]

....good?

 

Out of curiosity, how many other countries do this?

[StrangeSox]

I don't know but I also don't care. I don't want a society that leaves its most vulnerable members behind.

[southsider2k5]

I don't know but I also don't care. I don't want a society that leaves its most vulnerable members behind.

 

It is relevant to a lot of things though. Including those statistics on one end when the rest of the world doesn't probably means most of the educational statistics you hear are BS. It means you are comparing apples and oranges.

 

If I had to guess, based on the fact that much of the world doesn't educate everyone deemed as worthy, I would be shocked if most of the world pays to educate truly special education students.

[StrangeSox]

...so that would mean that the US system is better than advertised and there's no reason to criticize the tenure system as a reason we lag behind other countries, mainly because they also have tenure systems so that argument doesn't make any sense anyway but also because we're not really worse after all.

[southsider2k5]

...so that would mean that the US system is better than advertised and there's no reason to criticize the tenure system as a reason we lag behind other countries, mainly because they also have tenure systems so that argument doesn't make any sense anyway but also because we're not really worse after all.

 

Which means all of the underfunding arguments are complete garbage.

[RockRaines]

For the politicos on here is this article fairly factual?

 

 

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/...romney-20120829

[StrangeSox]

They directly cite FDIC documents a bunch of times, so that seems to lend some credibility. I haven't seen talk or analysis of it anywhere else yet.

[Soxbadger]

I don't know but I also don't care. I don't want a society that leaves its most vulnerable members behind.

 

How is it leaving them behind?

 

If someone can only learn at a 1st grade level, its obviously sad and a tragedy. But does it make it any less of a tragedy if a school spends 2x as much on them then a regular student? What if they spend 10x as much?

 

Isnt that just a poor allocation of resources? Wouldnt it make more sense to allocate more resources to the students who can turn those resources into something?

 

No one wants them to be hurt or taken advantage of, but some of these people will never function in society. No matter how much money is spent on them. So does it really make sense to have a masters degree teacher taking a kid to the Jewel so the teacher can stand there while they bag groceries?

 

And Im not even making this up. This is what goes on in high school special ed classrooms. They are using teachers to babysit, and we arent talking 1 teacher for 30 students, its sometimes 1 teacher for 2-3 students.

[StrangeSox]

I know someone who is able to hold a full-time job because he was educated through high school. He will never live on his own, but he is a nice guy and not ostracized in public when attending weddings, family parties, etc.

 

I also have a friend who teaches high school special ed. Treating them as human beings deserving of education the same as everyone else makes a huge difference.