The Republican Thread

[cabiness42]

Making an "I'm a Christian and we're supposed to love everybody" comment doesn't mean you don't favor criminalization of things you consider sins. His comment about that also specifically mentioned terrorists, who I'm pretty sure he doesn't have a problem with locking up.

 

No, it doesn't necessarily mean that, but nothing he said gives any hint that he thinks it should be criminalized. That's a bunch of made up self-serving bulls*** on your part.

[CrimsonWeltall]

No, it doesn't necessarily mean that, but nothing he said gives any hint that he thinks it should be criminalized. That's a bunch of made up self-serving bulls*** on your part.

 

The fact that he views it as basically the number one moral problem in America is a hint. That position isn't that "out there" for an evangelical Christian. It's certainly (as my comment said) more likely than him being in favor of marriage equality.

[cabiness42]

The fact that he views it as basically the number one moral problem in America is a hint. That position isn't that "out there" for an evangelical Christian. It's certainly (as my comment said) more likely than him being in favor of marriage equality.

 

 

Millions and millions of people think that homosexuality is a huge moral problem, and I have never heard a single one say that it should be criminalized. Like I said, that is complete, made up bulls***.

[StrangeSox]

Millions and millions of people think that homosexuality is a huge moral problem, and I have never heard a single one say that it should be criminalized. Like I said, that is complete, made up bulls***.

Do I need to find links to stories of gay couples being arrested when they try to obtain marriage certificates?

 

Are you aware that, until the Lawrence decision about ten years ago, it was criminal in many places to engage in sodomy, essentially criminalizing any same-sex sex activity?

 

Are you aware that the republican candidate for governor in Virginia proposed reinstating the state ban on sodomy and defending it up to the supreme court?

 

Are you aware of how many states have constitutional bans of ssm?

 

spare us the tired defenses of bigotry.

Edited December 30, 2013 by StrangeSox

[CrimsonWeltall]

Millions and millions of people think that homosexuality is a huge moral problem, and I have never heard a single one say that it should be criminalized. Like I said, that is complete, made up bulls***.

 

You're honestly trying to claim that anti-sodomy laws, which 14 states had only a decade ago, are something that no one supports? Rick Perry and Rick Santorum have both expressed that they're in favor of them. These aren't random fringe cooks; they're Presidential Candidates.

 

The American Family Association, Focus on the Family, the Family Research Council, and other Christian organizations also hold that position.

 

Sorry for the "complete, made up bulls***".

[cabiness42]

OK, criminalized was the wrong word. The Texas anti-sodomy law you threw back in my face had a fine as the penalty. Not exactly the "throwing them in jail" attitude you were attributing to Mr. Robertson.

[StrangeSox]

OK, criminalized was the wrong word. The Texas anti-sodomy law you threw back in my face had a fine as the penalty. Not exactly the "throwing them in jail" attitude you were attributing to Mr. Robertson.

Oh just a fine for their criminal behavior, no big deal.

 

What about the people that have been arrested for attempting to obtain a marriage certificate?

[cabiness42]

Oh just a fine for their criminal behavior, no big deal.

 

What about the people that have been arrested for attempting to obtain a marriage certificate?

 

I'm not saying the Texas law was OK. I think it's terrible. I'm pointing out that somebody made the claim that Mr. Robertson favored throwing gay people in jail and that the claim is totally unfounded.

 

Let me be clear--I'm not a fan of what the guy said, but let's stick to what he actually said and not make assumptions that are clearly unfounded.

[CrimsonWeltall]

OK, criminalized was the wrong word. The Texas anti-sodomy law you threw back in my face had a fine as the penalty. Not exactly the "throwing them in jail" attitude you were attributing to Mr. Robertson.

 

That's what the Texas law was at the time, but historically anti-sodomy laws often carried jail sentences.

 

Louisiana, where Phil Robertson is from, still has theirs on the books (though it can't be enforced). The penalty is a $2000 fine or up to 5 years in jail.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Let me be clear--I'm not a fan of what the guy said, but let's stick to what he actually said and not make assumptions that are clearly unfounded.

 

I didn't say he definitively held that position. I was reacting to the ridiculous implication that Robertson supported marriage equality and said it was more likely he supported criminalization of homosexuality than that.

 

It is not unfounded that a strongly anti-gay Evangelical would be more likely to support anti-sodomy laws than marriage equality.

[cabiness42]

I didn't say he definitively held that position. I was reacting to the ridiculous implication that Robertson supported marriage equality and said it was more likely he supported criminalization of homosexuality than that.

 

It is not unfounded that a strongly anti-gay Evangelical would be more likely to support anti-sodomy laws than marriage equality.

 

OK, but taking something that he has a 0.0001 percent chance of being in favor of and inserting it into the conversation by saying it's more likely than something he has a 0.0000 percent chance of, while technically true, is misleading and doesn't add anything to the conversation.

 

I could say that you are more likely to mail me a check for $100,000 than you are to be in favor of throwing gay people in jail. While it may technically be true, it really serves no purpose to say that.

[CrimsonWeltall]

OK, but taking something that he has a 0.0001 percent chance of being in favor of and inserting it into the conversation by saying it's more likely than something he has a 0.0000 percent chance of, while technically true, is misleading and doesn't add anything to the conversation.

 

Given his legit hatred of gay people, I'd say it's a solid 50% vs 0%.

 

It's not misleading and it was a perfectly reasonable response to Duke's claim that he supported marriage equality.

[cabiness42]

Given his legit hatred of gay people, I'd say it's a solid 50% vs 0%.

 

It's not misleading and it was a perfectly reasonable response to Duke's claim that he supported marriage equality.

 

No, nowhere near 50% chance that he thinks gays should go to jail. That's just stupid.

[CrimsonWeltall]

No, nowhere near 50% chance that he thinks gays should go to jail. That's just stupid.

 

The guy isn't just anti-gay; he's DERANGED anti-gay.

 

"They’re full of murder, envy, strife, hatred. They are insolent, arrogant, God-haters. They are heartless, they are faithless, they are senseless, they are ruthless. They invent ways of doing evil."

[cabiness42]

The guy isn't just anti-gay; he's DERANGED anti-gay.

 

"They’re full of murder, envy, strife, hatred. They are insolent, arrogant, God-haters. They are heartless, they are faithless, they are senseless, they are ruthless. They invent ways of doing evil."

 

You still haven't shown me where he said they should go to jail. He can say all kinds of nasty things about them. He hasn't said one damn thing about jail.

 

[StrangeSox]

So they're a bunch of evil murders full of hate constantly inventing new forms of evil, but it's absurd to think he'd support criminalizing lgbt and it's just as likely that he supports marriage equality.

[CrimsonWeltall]

You still haven't shown me where he said they should go to jail. He can say all kinds of nasty things about them. He hasn't said one damn thing about jail.

 

He's a deranged, gay-hating, Evangelical Christian. I have to give you a direct quote from him about sodomy laws to think there's a good chance he might support them?

 

Where did you get your .0001%, by the way?

[cabiness42]

He's a deranged, gay-hating, Evangelical Christian. I have to give you a direct quote from him about sodomy laws to think there's a good chance he might support them?

 

Where did you get your .0001%, by the way?

 

If you want to make a claim that somebody is in favor of something, yet, it's good to have a quote from somebody stating that they are in favor of it. That's generally how it works.

 

 

[CrimsonWeltall]

If you want to make a claim that somebody is in favor of something, yet, it's good to have a quote from somebody stating that they are in favor of it. That's generally how it works.

 

Gotcha.

 

If Duke ever claims that Phil Robertson believes the universe was created by the Hindu god Brahma, I'll be sure to find a direct quote before I respond that it's more likely he believes in Genesis.

[cabiness42]

Gotcha.

 

If Duke ever claims that Phil Robertson believes the universe was created by the Hindu god Brahma, I'll be sure to find a direct quote before I respond that it's more likely he believes in Genesis.

 

Exactly. Because when Duke makes a claim that is obviously not true, the way to counter that is to ask him to back up his claim, not to make a counterclaim that is very likely also untrue.

 

[DukeNukeEm]

I'm in Utah a lot. I like Utah a lot, I almost picked it over Oregon but things get in the way of other things.

 

Utah recently had a judge allow gay marriage. It pissed off damn near everyone in Utah. The LDS for obvious reasons but for many others it was clear it had little to do with gays getting married. Out West a funny thing has been happening, Californians are fleeing their mess and settling down in traditionally conservative states. A lot of the times they get politically involved and start changing things. They've already done this Colorado, and its fairly well publicized. Essentially what made the natives like where they lived is being attacked by people who are making the same mistakes they did before. Its an invasive culture that is not welcome to people.

 

A lot of people in Utah are worried that they're next. That this gay marriage thing will shoot up like a beacon for liberals and soon so much of what they love about Utah (like no gun laws, low taxes, pretty small and ineffective state government) will go away. That's why they don't want it.

 

That's a major peril of gays hopping on the Democrat bandwagon so monolithically, its not always about gay rights as much as it is about stopping the policies that follow. If you want acceptance everywhere from everyone you have to divorce yourself from the Democrats. Stop being so confrontational with places you have no understanding of. Because when the first anti-gay hate crime gains national news out of Utah, I don't think it'll be motivated as much by homophobia than a fear that what those people love is under threat.

[DukeNukeEm]

I fully anticipate the "SO THEY SHOULD JUST BE BIGOTS THEN UGH DUKE YOU ARE SO" response that entirely misses the point of the point of my post and actually confirms the total lack of cultural sensitivity you advertise yourselves as having.

[BigSqwert]

I'm in Utah a lot. I like Utah a lot, I almost picked it over Oregon but things get in the way of other things.

 

Utah recently had a judge allow gay marriage. It pissed off damn near everyone in Utah. The LDS for obvious reasons but for many others it was clear it had little to do with gays getting married. Out West a funny thing has been happening, Californians are fleeing their mess and settling down in traditionally conservative states. A lot of the times they get politically involved and start changing things. They've already done this Colorado, and its fairly well publicized. Essentially what made the natives like where they lived is being attacked by people who are making the same mistakes they did before. Its an invasive culture that is not welcome to people.

 

A lot of people in Utah are worried that they're next. That this gay marriage thing will shoot up like a beacon for liberals and soon so much of what they love about Utah (like no gun laws, low taxes, pretty small and ineffective state government) will go away. That's why they don't want it.

 

That's a major peril of gays hopping on the Democrat bandwagon so monolithically, its not always about gay rights as much as it is about stopping the policies that follow. If you want acceptance everywhere from everyone you have to divorce yourself from the Democrats. Stop being so confrontational with places you have no understanding of. Because when the first anti-gay hate crime gains national news out of Utah, I don't think it'll be motivated as much by homophobia than a fear that what those people love is under threat.

 

Too bad. Let the will of the "invaders" prevail. You seemed to have that stance when Europeans invaded the land of Native Americans.

[DukeNukeEm]

Too bad. Let the will of the "invaders" prevail. You seemed to have that stance when Europeans invaded the land of Native Americans.

Yea I never faulted the natives for fighting back. Im guessing you don't either.

 

So if (when) it gets ugly I'll remember you brought up the comparison.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Exactly. Because when Duke makes a claim that is obviously not true, the way to counter that is to ask him to back up his claim, not to make a counterclaim that is very likely also untrue.

 

My counterclaim (it is more likely that a rabidly anti-gay bigot would favor criminalizing homosexuality than favor marriage equality) is almost certainly true.