The Republican Thread

[cabiness42]

I guess I really don't understand the outrage or the "liberal p**** fantasy" here. Maybe some people are really, really into the whole exclusive club thing to the point that getting the exact same honor in front of a larger group is somehow worse than getting that honor in front of a smaller group?

 

eta: also what is the problem with learning for the sake of learning or personal enrichment? Is learning and individual success only worth it if you're given a ribbon or a certificate to show how smart you are? Talk about coddling, special-snowflake bulls***.

 

Well, enough people thought there was a difference between being honored in front of a larger group than a smaller group that they complained about the long-standing tradition.

 

Also, kids aren't really mature enough to learn for the sake of learning. Awards provide motivation to kids to do things that they won't appreciate until later in life.

 

I couldn't get enough math and science in high school, but couldn't give a flying f*** about writing or literature, except that college admission and the potential for class honors and scholarships depended on it. Now I'm very glad that I gave effort in those classes just for the sake of the knowledge.

Edited May 22, 2014 by HickoryHuskers

[StrangeSox]

Well, enough people thought there was a difference between being honored in front of a larger group than a smaller group that they complained about the long-standing tradition.

 

Also, kids aren't really mature enough to learn for the sake of learning. Awards provide motivation to kids to do things that they won't appreciate until later in life.

 

I couldn't get enough math and science in high school, but couldn't give a flying f*** about writing or literature, except that college admission and the potential for class honors and scholarships depended on it. Now I'm very glad that I gave effort in those classes just for the sake of the knowledge.

I agree about the mental and emotional maturity of kids that age, but jenks started asking about "What's the point of a college degree?" If the only reason you got a college degree was so that you got some adulation and praise, you probably had the wrong motivations.

 

Even you pointed out some much more important things than working hard just so you can be honored at an exclusive event, though. Getting into college and getting scholarships to reduce the enormous debt burden college usually comes with these days is a lot more important than some exclusivity.

[Jenksismyhero]

So not any part of you took honors courses or did well in school or went to college, etc in order to have someone look at you and be proud and/or impressed with your achievements? Yes, obviously we also went to learn. We went to get a degree and start a career. But for me, a portion of it was how people would see me/think of me going forward. In junior high and high school, when you have little else, those were motivating factors for me and many others. It was special to be a group of 25-30 kids that were in all AP classes and got recognized for it. Just like getting extra tassles at graduation or fighting over class rank.

 

Again, I liken it to a track meet or the Olympics. You perform in those activities to win and when you win you want special recognition for it. You want to stand on that podium on your own. You don't want to be handed a medal at the same time as everyone else at a large ceremony.

 

 

 

[Balta1701]

Well, enough people thought there was a difference between being honored in front of a larger group than a smaller group that they complained about the long-standing tradition.

Worth noting, if it became a "media story" big enough to be picked up here, then even if it was really totally innocuous and unimportant, they were going to have the phone ringing off the hook with complaints.

[Balta1701]

So not any part of you took honors courses or did well in school or went to college, etc in order to have someone look at you and be proud and/or impressed with your achievements? Yes, obviously we also went to learn. We went to get a degree and start a career. But for me, a portion of it was how people would see me/think of me going forward. In junior high and high school, when you have little else, those were motivating factors for me and many others. It was special to be a group of 25-30 kids that were in all AP classes and got recognized for it. Just like getting extra tassles at graduation or fighting over class rank.

 

Again, I liken it to a track meet or the Olympics. You perform in those activities to win and when you win you want special recognition for it. You want to stand on that podium on your own. You don't want to be handed a medal at the same time as everyone else at a large ceremony.

Just to note...skipped the graduation for the last degree I got. Honestly the college one was nice but was probably more for parents than for me too.

[CrimsonWeltall]

So not any part of you took honors courses or did well in school or went to college, etc in order to have someone look at you and be proud and/or impressed with your achievements?

 

Getting such recognition was a tiny bonus compared to the actual benefits of doing well in school. I understand you were using hyperbole when you said '99%', but to me it was probably like 0.5%. It's not like A Honor Roll turns you into the cool kid in junior high and high school.

[Jenksismyhero]

I believe Alpha or someone might have said this pages ago, but it makes zero sense to take way these things that recognize GOOD students, students that have worked hard and done well. And it's especially dumb when your excuse is the "exclusion" of other students.

[StrangeSox]

But nobody took any of the actual honors away, just the separate honors night. Couldn't you turn that around and say that by honoring these students in front of the entire student body, you're giving those who didn't make the honor roll something to aspire to?

[StrangeSox]

So not any part of you took honors courses or did well in school or went to college, etc in order to have someone look at you and be proud and/or impressed with your achievements? Yes, obviously we also went to learn. We went to get a degree and start a career. But for me, a portion of it was how people would see me/think of me going forward. In junior high and high school, when you have little else, those were motivating factors for me and many others. It was special to be a group of 25-30 kids that were in all AP classes and got recognized for it. Just like getting extra tassles at graduation or fighting over class rank.

 

I was lazy as hell in school, but I was motivated enough to keep getting A's and B's. I don't know why exactly, but it wasn't for honor roll or some special awards night that I honestly probably wouldn't have gone to anyway. I was in the "gifted" program in junior high because it got me out of class occasionally to go do some cool stuff. I took AP classes because those were the next ones on the list, not to feel part of a special group. I didn't give one s*** about class rank and IIRC didn't finish in the top 10%.

 

I was proud to make the dean's list by my senior year of college, but that was entirely a personal accomplishment in light of getting my ass kicked the first two years due to my previously mentioned laziness in HS. On the other hand, I'm also someone who tries to avoid the spotlight so I'm sure that colors my view of some exclusive ceremonies or awards.

[Jenksismyhero]

But nobody took any of the actual honors away, just the separate honors night. Couldn't you turn that around and say that by honoring these students in front of the entire student body, you're giving those who didn't make the honor roll something to aspire to?

 

Do you really think they're going to take away this honors night and then in front of those "excluded" kids make a huge deal of this honors stuff?

 

 

[CrimsonWeltall]

They should just dump every award other than valedictorian. The award ceremony can be exclusive to the valedictorian and the principal alone. This will result in great honor, as the unwashed masses are undeserving of looking upon the image of The One.

[StrangeSox]

I dunno. Maybe? I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the separate event, but I really don't understand people being so upset about it, either.

[Balta1701]

I dunno. Maybe? I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the separate event, but I really don't understand people being so upset about it, either.

The reason why people are happy to get upset about it is that they can blame it on the liberals and say how terrible they are. As we already saw here.

[Jenksismyhero]

I dunno. Maybe? I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the separate event, but I really don't understand people being so upset about it, either.

 

Because it's in the same vein as not keeping score in kids soccer games or telling them that they won or lost because you don't want losing kids to feel bad about it. I, and others, think it's important to not only reward people who have achieved/won, but also to allow people to lose so they know what it's about. If you keep treating kids equally they don't learn anything.

 

I've seen that already in my 2 year old. If he doesn't go through a consequence, he won't change, be it positive or negative. You need to reward where appropriate, and you need to let them see consequence when appropriate so they learn good/bad, right/wrong, what to do/what not to do. If you're good at day care for a day you get a sticker. If you're bad, you don't. He's learned that already and he gets pissed when he doesn't get a sticker and we teach him it's because he smacked some kid in the head with a toy. It makes no sense to give him a sticker or to stop giving stickers entirely because you feel it excludes him from something. He needs to be excluded, otherwise he won't learn.

[Jenksismyhero]

The reason why people are happy to get upset about it is that they can blame it on the liberals and say how terrible they are. As we already saw here.

 

This IS on liberals. You're being purposefully dumb if you don't agree with that. Conservatives are equally wrong on the other extreme of this issue ("don't give em anything and don't give them any help, they'll learn on their own!")

Edited May 22, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[Jenksismyhero]

Again, had they said this was budgetary, no one would have cared. But as a policy choice they decided it was better to take away something positive in order to keep kids from being excluded. And to me that's a totally f***ed up policy, regardless of how important having a special award night really is in the grand scheme of things. It's the perspective of those board members/administrators that's the issue.

[Soxbadger]

I dont really see how this is liberal or conservative. Both sides b****/moan when they dont get what they want. I bet their are conservative parents who b**** when their kids dont get an award, just the same as liberal parents.

 

The reality is that no one should give a f*** about awards prior to HS. The point should be going to school, trying new things and being a decent human.

 

The last thing the smart kids need are more pats on the back, if anything its the kids who are in the middle/low end who need to be given hope/encouragement.

[StrangeSox]

Because it's in the same vein as not keeping score in kids soccer games or telling them that they won or lost because you don't want losing kids to feel bad about it. I, and others, think it's important to not only reward people who have achieved/won, but also to allow people to lose so they know what it's about. If you keep treating kids equally they don't learn anything.

 

I'm still missing the part where the honors students wouldn't have been getting honors awards. Honors kids still get rewarded, non-honors kids still don't. It's entirely about whether its at a separate event just for honors kids or if its part of a larger awards ceremony where people are awarded for other achievements as well.

 

And honestly, if people really get this snobby and stuck up about the event needing to be 'exclusive' to mean something, well, then it's probably good that they end it. Not because the non-honorees will feel excluded, but because the honorees will be douches about it.

 

I've seen that already in my 2 year old. If he doesn't go through a consequence, he won't change, be it positive or negative. You need to reward where appropriate, and you need to let them see consequence when appropriate so they learn good/bad, right/wrong, what to do/what not to do. If you're good at day care for a day you get a sticker. If you're bad, you don't. He's learned that already and he gets pissed when he doesn't get a sticker and we teach him it's because he smacked some kid in the head with a toy. It makes no sense to give him a sticker or to stop giving stickers entirely because you feel it excludes him from something. He needs to be excluded, otherwise he won't learn.

 

Does your 2 year old need some sort of sticker-kids-only exclusive club at the end of the day in order for the reward to mean something?

Edited May 22, 2014 by StrangeSox

[Jenksismyhero]

I dont really see how this is liberal or conservative. Both sides b****/moan when they dont get what they want. I bet their are conservative parents who b**** when their kids dont get an award, just the same as liberal parents.

 

The reality is that no one should give a f*** about awards prior to HS. The point should be going to school, trying new things and being a decent human.

 

The last thing the smart kids need are more pats on the back, if anything its the kids who are in the middle/low end who need to be given hope/encouragement.

 

It's just a parenting style/philosophy that you can see in the news and that i've already experienced personally in the 2 years with my son, that jive pretty closely with political ideology. Maybe not perfectly, but close. And yes, there are horrible parents/parenting styles on both sides.

 

And I disagree with the bolded. Pat the s*** out of everyone's back if you're doing something right. It makes zero sense to devalue someone's achievement just to make someone else feel better about themselves. Maybe some of the kids getting those honors were one of the dumb/apathetic/lazy kids and they worked to get those honors. "And now you've taken it away from them. What are they supposed to think now? Yeah, trying was fun but it didn't get me anywhere. What's the point?" That's a pretty dumb policy.

[Soxbadger]

Parents of medium students need reinforcement that their child is special thus they need an award show to prove it.

[Balta1701]

This IS on liberals. You're being purposefully dumb if you don't agree with that. Conservatives are equally wrong on the other extreme of this issue ("don't give em anything and don't give them any help, they'll learn on their own!")

No, its your caricature of them. Which is the point...something a school administrator does gets picked up, something akin to Fox broacasts it as a scandal because it fits their caricature of people, you go off on a rant, we respond with "why the **** should anyone care" and that somehow proves the point.

[StrangeSox]

It's just a parenting style/philosophy that you can see in the news and that i've already experienced personally in the 2 years with my son, that jive pretty closely with political ideology. Maybe not perfectly, but close. And yes, there are horrible parents/parenting styles on both sides.

 

And I disagree with the bolded. Pat the s*** out of everyone's back if you're doing something right. It makes zero sense to devalue someone's achievement just to make someone else feel better about themselves. Maybe some of the kids getting those honors were one of the dumb/apathetic/lazy kids and they worked to get those honors. "And now you've taken it away from them. What are they supposed to think now? Yeah, trying was fun but it didn't get me anywhere. What's the point?" That's a pretty dumb policy.

Nobody took away the honor roll or expanded it to include more people. Only the ceremony was changed to a larger one. Now they get to be awarded in front of the entire student body for their achievements. Why is this supposed to be so horrible? Set aside whatever possibly dumb motivations the administration may have had and just look at the actual results.

 

eta: as for the second bolded part, trying got them to learn more things, be more successful and get on the honor roll. If the only thing that drives you is a desire to belong to exclusive clubs and feel and flaunt that you're superior to others, then you're probably kind of a douche.

Edited May 22, 2014 by StrangeSox

[Jenksismyhero]

I'm still missing the part where the honors students wouldn't have been getting honors awards. Honors kids still get rewarded, non-honors kids still don't. It's entirely about whether its at a separate event just for honors kids or if its part of a larger awards ceremony where people are awarded for other achievements as well.

 

And honestly, if people really get this snobby and stuck up about the event needing to be 'exclusive' to mean something, well, then it's probably good that they end it. Not because the non-honorees will feel excluded, but because the honorees will be douches about it.

 

 

Well, I dunno how many times I can repeat it. If you don't get it, you don't get it. Being recognized on a specific night for something is going to be more meaningful than doing it in a large group. It's the same with sports awards. You're part of a special group and you should be honored/recognized accordingly. You shouldn't be lumped in with everyone else because everyone else doesn't belong there.

 

Does your 2 year old need some sort of sticker-kids-only exclusive club at the end of the day in order for the reward to mean something?

 

As I said before, it's not just taking it away, it's the reason behind it. It's a bulls*** mentality that kids all need to be given things equally, despite what they've done to earn it. Take away the special awards night. Fine, who cares. But don't do it under an "exclusion" justification. That's 100% of the problem here, not that the award night thing is really some special thing to begin with (although I think it's beneficial and worth SOMETHING to those kids, even if it's not a lot.)

 

[Jenksismyhero]

No, its your caricature of them. Which is the point...something a school administrator does gets picked up, something akin to Fox broacasts it as a scandal because it fits their caricature of people, you go off on a rant, we respond with "why the **** should anyone care" and that somehow proves the point.

 

Lol, oh I see. Let's ignore why people do what they do. Only look at the results. Come on man.

[Jenksismyhero]

Nobody took away the honor roll or expanded it to include more people. Only the ceremony was changed to a larger one. Now they get to be awarded in front of the entire student body for their achievements. Why is this supposed to be so horrible? Set aside whatever possibly dumb motivations the administration may have had and just look at the actual results.

 

eta: as for the second bolded part, trying got them to learn more things, be more successful and get on the honor roll. If the only thing that drives you is a desire to belong to exclusive clubs and feel and flaunt that you're superior to others, then you're probably kind of a douche.

 

The motivation is THE problem here. How many times do I have to repeat that?