The Republican Thread

[illinilaw08]

There's a decent argument, I think made through a 60 minutes special, that these big game hunters are actually a net positive to the animal populations/reserves, because they pay so much. They fund a lot of these places which allow animals to thrive. Not sure if that is the case here with a lion.

 

That argument (and I'm not opining on it generally) does not really work in this specific case - this was an extremely famous lion that brought a lot of $$ into that region. There is no doubt that this killing was a net financial negative (without discussing the other reasons this was tragic).

[Balta1701]

Why? If you hire an expert in any other field (doctor, lawyer, whatever) and you rely on their expertise, its generally not your fault if some third party gets hurt through their screw up.

Well yeah, but in those cases you also have licensing deals and other similar arrangements that you can use to indicate that the person is actually doing their job. If you buy a car from a guy off the street and you pay cash, and the car turns out to be stolen, you're the one possessing stolen property. Something tells me there aren't exactly licensing agencies in Africa that make sure people file appropriate big game hunting paperwork. Please tell me if I'm wrong and there's a strong labor union protecting their rights.

[Jenksismyhero]

All good reasons to stop this disgusting fantasy fulfillment for rich assholes.

 

Even if it means we keep losing animals to extinction? Not a very logical position.

[Chisoxfn]

It's my understanding that he is basically a dude that wanted to kill a lion, so he hired a bunch of guides who told him they got the proper permits and it was all cool. The blame seems to be on the guides moreso than the guy.

Yeah and I don't condone just going to kill a lion because hey, I killed a lion. Goes back to my statement of killing for pure trophy just doesn't jive with my own personal beliefs. If you use the meat or do it for another need, then go right ahead.

[Texsox]

Wouldn't it be amazing if everyone who was so outraged by the killing send in $20 for lion preservation? Problem solved.

 

Upwards of 600 lions are legally killed each year in Africa. If this one didn't have a name, no one would care. Having said that the methods used are reprehensible. I can't believe anyone could take pride in that safari. What was illegal in this hunt is the lack of permits (money to the country). The fact that hundreds more will be legally killed IMHO should outrage more people than one lion with a human name.

 

As humans we take from nature what is valuable. We destroy wetlands to build homes. We destroy birds for wind power. The factory farms and processing that produce your cheeseburger are on a scale well beyond Cecil. But the millions of cows that will be slaughtered this year do not have names and cute marketing stories. Our most durable leather comes from old dairy cows that are not normally eaten by humans. We don't care, they don't have names. But we like the leather. Think about the sweet baseball mitts we all broke in. The beef didn't feed humans.

[StrangeSox]

Even if it means we keep losing animals to extinction? Not a very logical position.

It could be funded in other ways.

[Balta1701]

There's a decent argument, I think made through a 60 minutes special, that these big game hunters are actually a net positive to the animal populations/reserves, because they pay so much. They fund a lot of these places which allow animals to thrive. Not sure if that is the case here with a lion.

I believe I saw the 60 minutes you're referencing and it focused on ranches in Texas that had imported large numbers of the endangered species and were keeping them alive in such a way that it was increasing the global population of the animals, with the exception that the ranches were keeping them alive for big game hunting on the ranches.

 

Assuming that's the case, it's a very different story from big game hunts in Africa.

[illinilaw08]

I guess, but what knowledge does a Minnesota dentist have about lions and property lines in Africa? If it turns out they told the guy what they were doing and he shot anyway, i'm in agreement with you. If he thought, innocently, that he bought and paid for the kill and it was all legal and proper, I don't see how he's at fault.

 

Doesn't this guy have some responsibility to know and understand those laws though? This guy also has a prior for killing a black bear 40 miles outside of permitted hunting grounds in Wisconsin.

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/cecil-li...-felony-n400226

 

 

[CrimsonWeltall]

Why? If you hire an expert in any other field (doctor, lawyer, whatever) and you rely on their expertise, its generally not your fault if some third party gets hurt through their screw up.

 

Medicine and law are a little more reliably regulated than shady African hunting trips.

[Chisoxfn]

By the way, I just want to reiterate that Don is an idiot. He doesn't stand for what american's are about. He is a sick and twisted guy that people are getting off on because he opens his big fat mouth. Well guess what, while he might ocassionally say what everyone is thinking, 90% of the time he just says something completely stupid.

 

His most recent comments on breastfeeding mom's is just another exception. As is him using a crying baby as an example for how he can show restrain. I'm sorry, but Donald Trump is pathetic, and the fact that he's even getting this publicity shows you how pathetic many of our voters are. I am sure if one of the Kardashian's ran, they'd get a huge following too (at least early on) and to be frank, I'd probably vote for Kloe before I voted for Trump.

 

I think it would be hard pressed for me to pick an individual for president that I like less then Obama, but Trump would be that guy.

[Jenksismyhero]

Well yeah, but in those cases you also have licensing deals and other similar arrangements that you can use to indicate that the person is actually doing their job. If you buy a car from a guy off the street and you pay cash, and the car turns out to be stolen, you're the one possessing stolen property. Something tells me there aren't exactly licensing agencies in Africa that make sure people file appropriate big game hunting paperwork. Please tell me if I'm wrong and there's a strong labor union protecting their rights.

 

Actually there a lot of innocent owner/innocent bona fide purchaser exceptions in the law. If you bought a used car and were provided authentic looking title docs, you'd have a pretty solid defense to being charged with possessing stolen property.

 

also, for what it's worth, the washington post claims:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning...ss-of-big-game/

 

South Africa’s big game hunting industry earns more than $744 million each year, according to Voice of America. Annually, it is responsible for creating 70,000 jobs and for attracting 9,000 trophy hunters, most of whom come from the United States. In some cases, such safaris are actually “canned” hunts in which people pay as much as $20,000 to hunt animals that have been bred for hunting and enclosed in a large space.

 

So yeah, it's possible he just got s***ty, unlicensed guides. He could have also gotten two legal guides that were also morons and didn't know the lion/area they were in.

 

This, from the national geographic, seems to indicate they were legit guides who did something illegal:

 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/07...vation-animals/

 

the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and some conservation groups do support regulated trophy hunting, including the World Wildlife Fund. The group sent a letter to the U.S. government in 2009 arguing that regulated sport hunting can “strongly contribute to the enhancement of the survival of the species.” (Learn more about captive lion hunting.)

 

 

 

The Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association has suspended its members that were involved in the hunt of Cecil. The group “will not tolerate any illegal hunting or any unethical practices by any of its members and their staff," they wrote on their Facebook page.

 

Each lion matters, say National Geographic explorers-in-residence Dereck and Beverly Joubert, who oppose trophy hunting, or what they call “conservation by the gun.”

Edited July 29, 2015 by Jenksismybitch

[EvilMonkey]

Actually there a lot of innocent owner/innocent bona fide purchaser exceptions in the law. If you bought a used car and were provided authentic looking title docs, you'd have a pretty solid defense to being charged with possessing stolen property.

 

also, for what it's worth, the washington post claims:

 

 

 

So yeah, it's possible he just got s***ty, unlicensed guides. He could have also gotten two legal guides that were also morons and didn't know the lion/area they were in.

Or two licensed guides trying to do a little something on the side to pocket more cash for themselves...

[Jenksismyhero]

Or two licensed guides trying to do a little something on the side to pocket more cash for themselves...

 

Sounds likely here.

[Texsox]

I've been on guided fishing trips to Mexico and Canada I assumed the guides were having me fishing legally. I guess I could have hired a lawyer first and had them check

 

I've been on guided excursion in National Parks, Wildlife Areas, again I trust the people taking my money that the program is legal.

 

So if, and that is a big IF, the hunter was not aware the hunt was illegal, and again my spidey senses tell me otherwise, I see him being somewhat innocent of the technical charges against him. The lack of quota in that region, the landowner not having a permit, etc. Even the ethics leaves me shaking my head, but the laws do allow for baiting lions (with proper permits). That exact same hunt could have been made legal with the proper paperwork.

 

Has anyone really paused to think about that? The hunt would have been legal with the proper permits and in a different area. Then no one would have been outraged?

[StrangeSox]

No, people still object to legal big game hunting/exploitation

[Balta1701]

Has anyone really paused to think about that? The hunt would have been legal with the proper permits and in a different area. Then no one would have been outraged?

This specific one was at least in a protected area and thus shouldn't have been exposed to that hunt. However you're right that this def. goes on all the time otherwise. For those areas, it's an exploitable natural resource.

[Texsox]

This specific one was at least in a protected area and thus shouldn't have been exposed to that hunt. However you're right that this def. goes on all the time otherwise. For those areas, it's an exploitable natural resource.

 

My understanding is if a lion wanders off that area they can still be killed. This one was collared, so it would never be legal. But a lion which is baited off a preserve and into an area where the landowner has he necessary permits is fair game. On a much smaller scale landowners have this dispute with neighbors all the time. Encouraging animals to leave one property for another. Hunts in the US adjacent to protected areas often are at a premium.

[Texsox]

And seriously, Cecil wasn't as famous as people were making him out to be. Who here really heard of him before he was killed?

[Balta1701]

And seriously, Cecil wasn't as famous as people were making him out to be. Who here really heard of him before he was killed?

No one here thought it was a big enough deal to bring up until the "OMG PETA said something out-rageous!!!" post.

[cabiness42]

No one here thought it was a big enough deal to bring up until the "OMG PETA said something out-rageous!!!" post.

 

Also nobody posted about him in the celebrity death thread.

[Jenksismyhero]

No one here thought it was a big enough deal to bring up until the "OMG PETA said something out-rageous!!!" post.

 

I had debated bringing it up earlier because the outrage has been kind of extreme and borderline ridiculous.

[Balta1701]

I had debated bringing it up earlier because the outrage has been kind of extreme and borderline ridiculous.

And you're surprised that PETA got in on the act because?

[EvilMonkey]

The National Gun Victims Council also jumped on it crazy for a few hours until someone pointed out to them that it was a bow hunter. MAIG even had a statement about it on their site for about an hour before they took it down. DOH!

[Balta1701]

The National Gun Victims Council also jumped on it crazy for a few hours until someone pointed out to them that it was a bow hunter. MAIG even had a statement about it on their site for about an hour before they took it down. DOH!

To be fair, the lion was actually killed with a gun. The guy wounded him with the arrow and then 40 hours later they tracked him down and put him out of his misery.

[Jenksismyhero]

And you're surprised that PETA got in on the act because?

 

I expected all of my liberal friends to be up in arms about a group calling for another human's death by hanging.