How much should we worry about Joe Crede?

[whitesoxfan101]

Crede is in a slump. Baseball players do that from time to time. To say he is through, or that his back is the reason doesn't make any real sense - only to those that have been convinced since last year that this is the problem. If we made trades and other moves based on what someone has done over a month or less this entire team would have been gone. Joe is still doing a god job and I really think the fact he just isn't 100% comfortable is because of his being off the field for almost a year. It takes awhile to get the edge back and apparently others think he still has it or he wouldn't be an all-star.

 

You had me until the bolded. He's been playing for over 3 months now, it doesn't take THAT long to get back to being comfortable playing. The players who voted Crede in also voted Jason Varitek and his .218 batting average and .653 OPS into the game too, so that doesn't matter.

 

It's possible Crede is just in a slump of course, but anytime he slumps with his back history, people are going to wonder about it and I think that's a fair concern.

 

Is that sarcasm? I just don't believe a guy can be doing awesome without having an average in the .270 to .275 range. Just my two sense. I love his periph's as they are very solid, but that average prevents him from being awesome.

 

Ever seen Adam Dunn during one of his hot streaks? Batting average is the most overrated mainstream stat in baseball (if not the most overrated stat in general period), outside of wins for pitchers and ERA's for pitchers out of the bullpen.

Edited July 15, 2008 by whitesoxfan101

[Chisoxfn]

You had me until the bolded. He's been playing for over 3 months now, it doesn't take THAT long to get back to being comfortable playing. The players who voted Crede in also voted Jason Varitek and his .218 batting average and .653 OPS into the game too, so that doesn't matter.

 

It's possible Crede is just in a slump of course, but anytime he slumps with his back history, people are going to wonder about it and I think that's a fair concern.

 

 

 

Ever seen Adam Dunn during one of his hot streaks? Batting average is the most overrated mainstream stat in baseball (if not the most overrated stat in general period), outside of wins for pitchers and ERA's for pitchers out of the bullpen.

Wow, Dunn on a hot streak. Dunn is a great 5 hole hitter, anything more than that and I'd say he's over-rated. The amount of money he will get will be far too much too. Average is not at all over-rated, its probably become as under-rated a stat as there is in baseball. What's next, people are going to start telling me ERA is underrated too. The object of hitting is to get hits and the object of pitching is to prevent runs.

 

Obviously that is a bit simplistic of an approach and peripheals are important in evaluating what guys is more productive or who is more likely having a fluke type season but the reality is that is a hitter's job (and by hitting for an average you are likely going to be able to drive in runs, although there are obviously exceptions to that philosphy and again that is why OBP and OPS are definitely important, but if you can't hit for average, you can't play on a team I'm running, unless you are a shutdown catcher).

[greg775]

Even today, fans call the radio talk shows to discuss when Fields will no longer be the third baseman-in-waiting. Crazy talk, but it’s there. Part of it comes from the assumption that the Sox won’t be able to sign free-agent Crede after the season. Part of it comes with the infatuation with the next new thing. Most of it is silly.

 

That is from Rick Morrissey's column in the Trib. He says Sox should resign Joe and his agent is talking nice about the Sox as well. Say what you want, but there is a lot of "infatuation with the next new thing" regarding sports today. Joe is a good player and should remain a Sox as he currently wants to do.

[Kalapse]

I agree average is a volatile stat and I'm not going to say that Hall is better than Swisher (That would be ridiculous as you still have to look at peripherals). However, I would argue that those two singles would be more important than two walks. Lets say the single comes with runners on 2nd and 3rd. That single drives in two runs where as a walk wouldn't drive in any runs. Or if a runner is on 2nd, the single could drive in a run, where as the walk puts guys on 1st and 2nd.

 

Bottom line I still think it is important for a player to get hits and I will not consider anyone a great player that hits under .250.

Well no s*** a single is more valuable than a walk, no need to sell me on that point. It's just your insistence that if a player doesn't hit for a high average then he can't be considered a highly productive ballplayer. A .380 OBP that's anchored by a .300 AVG is certainly stronger than one that's paired with a .250 AVG but these players aren't exactly plentiful.

 

Nick Swisher is not going to hit for a high average but he is going to give you a high OBP and pretty solid SLG, which is exactly what he's done over the past 16 games leading me to proclaim that stretch "awesome" for NICK SWISHER. If Jim Thome puts up those same numbers over the same timespan I'd say it's a disappointment. It's all about expectations.

 

We'd all love a lineup full of Derek Lee's (.306/.372/.508/.880) but that's just not realistic.

[whitesoxfan101]

The object of hitting is to get hits and the object of pitching is to prevent runs.

 

The object of an at bat is to not make an out, or to get on base. Whether you walked or singled, you have not made an out. Now obviously, with 2nd and 3rd 1 out you'd rather have a two run single than a walk to load the bases, but the object of hitting is to not make outs, because you only get 27 of them a game. I'd MUCH rather have an Adam Dunn who hits .230 but has a .380 on base percentage than an Alexei Ramirez who hits .310 but has a .330 on base percentage. And that doesn't even take into account the power/run production difference. To me, OPS very well may be the most important stat, since if you have a low OPS, you aren't getting on base or hitting for power, and that makes you completely useless right off the bat as an offensive player.

Edited July 15, 2008 by whitesoxfan101

[greg775]

There used to be a time fans were proud of their all stars.

Now in the Internet/talk show era many fans only are currently jazzed about one of our two all stars.

Sad there's so much Crede hate.

[Princess Dye]

Crede has gotten a lot of important RBIs this year. I dont see why we have to mentally enter free agency already when we're in the middle of a race.

 

We get past this actual year first, and then go to the usual "oh my god, he turned his back on the only franchise that he's ever known" etc etc.

[Kalapse]

Perhaps if he actually deserved to be there things would be different. But yeah I'm psyched to see him pop out to second in his 1 AB.

 

Good for him though, I'm sure he's having a gay old time in New York.

[NorthSideSox72]

Perhaps if he actually deserved to be there things would be different. But yeah I'm psyched to see him pop out to second in his 1 AB.

 

Good for him though, I'm sure he's having a gay old time in New York.

While I agree that Crede wasn't the best choice - Longoria should have been voted in - I think you are being a bit harsh. Crede is not having a spectacular year, but a .253/.325/.466/.791 line isn't exactly horrible, especially when its a low point (he's been a lot higher at other times this season). Plus he's hitting .287 w/ runners on, and .280 w/RISP. And I don't think he has permanently become a bad fielder either - just hasn't gotten a rhythm yet. He still has made at least as many plays that most 3B's don't make, as he has errors.

[Kalapse]

While I agree that Crede wasn't the best choice - Longoria should have been voted in - I think you are being a bit harsh. Crede is not having a spectacular year, but a .253/.325/.466/.791 line isn't exactly horrible, especially when its a low point (he's been a lot higher at other times this season). Plus he's hitting .287 w/ runners on, and .280 w/RISP. And I don't think he has permanently become a bad fielder either - just hasn't gotten a rhythm yet. He still has made at least as many plays that most 3B's don't make, as he has errors.

Mike Lowell is having a vastly superior season in every facet of the game. His OPS is 70 points higher, he's played well in the field and he's hitting .319/.391/.652/1.043 w/ RISP, .314/.455/.657/1.112 w/ 2 outs & RISP and .447/.490/.723/1.214 in Close and Late situations; yeah he's been clutch.

 

If doesn't really matter if he's going to be this bad in the field for the rest of his career or not, the fact of the matter is, he's probably been the worst defensive regular in the AL at 3B this season and his offensive numbers are nearly good enough to offset this. Hell, Adrian Beltre is having a better season considering the park he plays in and how great he is in the field.

 

In my mind Crede's had a pretty disappointing first half and shouldn't be representing the AL in AS game, especially when a couple of his teammates were MUCH more deserving. I don't particularly enjoy watching him play in the games that count so getting to see him take a couple swings in an exhibition game doesn't exactly have me doing cartwheels.

[DBAHO]

Look I think it's been a very unlikely "Joe Crede" season than what we expected coming into this year.

 

You would have thought, with his back, that he would have struggled offensively and only hit around .240 possibly, but that he would still give you good defense.

 

Well the opposite has basically happened, where Crede has looked more like Josh Fields out there. Last season Crede was fantastic in defense, so I don't know why he's been so bad this season.

 

Offensively, he's hit for more power than I have expected, but the average is creeping down a little.

 

Overall, it's been a mixed bag, but I'll take what he's done so far, as I think will most Sox fans.

[NorthSideSox72]

Mike Lowell is having a vastly superior season in every facet of the game. His OPS is 70 points higher, he's played well in the field and he's hitting .319/.391/.652/1.043 w/ RISP, .314/.455/.657/1.112 w/ 2 outs & RISP and .447/.490/.723/1.214 in Close and Late situations; yeah he's been clutch.

 

If doesn't really matter if he's going to be this bad in the field for the rest of his career or not, the fact of the matter is, he's probably been the worst defensive regular in the AL at 3B this season and his offensive numbers are nearly good enough to offset this. Hell, Adrian Beltre is having a better season considering the park he plays in and how great he is in the field.

 

In my mind Crede's had a pretty disappointing first half and shouldn't be representing the AL in AS game, especially when a couple of his teammates were MUCH more deserving. I don't particularly enjoy watching him play in the games that count so getting to see him take a couple swings in an exhibition game doesn't exactly have me doing cartwheels.

Like I said, others were more deserving. No argument there. But saying things like, he's been the worst defensive regular at 3B this season, to me, are exaggerations. I just don't think he's nearly as bad as you and some others are portraying.

 

[DBAHO]

There's no doubt that Longoria should have been in automatically, and Dye should have gotten the nomination. But at least we've got 2 guys in there I guess.

[Kalapse]

Like I said, others were more deserving. No argument there. But saying things like, he's been the worst defensive regular at 3B this season, to me, are exaggerations. I just don't think he's nearly as bad as you and some others are portraying.

Perhaps it just comes from watching a ton of baseball but you often see thirdbaseman make diving stops to either side as Joe Crede has done well this season. These same 3B are also capable of adjusting to the tough hop something Crede has failed to do time and time again this year. It seems like if the ball is only an inch higher or lower than Crede expects it to be he's going to boot it, he really should have at least 20 errors already but he gets the benefit of the doubt on any ball that catches him in between. Hell Hawk and DJ talked about it after he misplayed a ball in Texas, Michael Young was given a basehit on a ball Crede should have had with ease. When you have the reputation that Crede does for being one of the best in the game you need to make the tough plays hit right at you look easy, you can't just live off diving stops.

[NorthSideSox72]

Perhaps it just comes from watching a ton of baseball but you often see thirdbaseman make diving stops to either side as Joe Crede has done well this season. These same 3B are also capable of adjusting to the tough hop something Crede has failed to do time and time again this year. It seems like if the ball is only an inch higher or lower than Crede expects it to be he's going to boot it, he really should have at least 20 errors already but he gets the benefit of the doubt on any ball that catches him in between. Hell Hawk and DJ talked about it after he misplayed a ball in Texas, Michael Young was given a basehit on a ball Crede should have had with ease. When you have the reputation that Crede does for being one of the best in the game you need to make the tough plays hit right at you look easy, you can't just live off diving stops.

He's booted a few grounders, but actually, I don't think that's his problem area. I think he'll do that about 10 times a year anyway, as will most thirdbasemen. What Joe has consistently struggled with, and is hard to watch, is his throws. Any time he gets a play that isn't bang-bang, he seems lost - his feet, his body angle, his throwing motion all look awkward. And then me make a sidearm throw that sails off target.

 

I really think that's a technique thing - he isn't just throwing instinctively anymore, he's thinking too much. That's something he'll probably get past pretty quickly.

 

[DBAHO]

Just going to throw something out there.

 

Adrian Beltre has been made available in trade talks. If Crede did bolt during FA, and the Sox decided to use Fields in a trade package (to say bring in a good CF such as Nate McLouth if Konerko was traded), would anyone be interested in trading for Beltre?

 

His defense has always been very good, and hitting wise he hasn't been great, but he's hit around 15-20HR's over the past couple of seasons with around a .260 AVG in argubly the hardest hitting ballpark for RHH's in Safeco, his offensive numbers would improve from hitting at the Cell.

[Kalapse]

He's booted a few grounders, but actually, I don't think that's his problem area. I think he'll do that about 10 times a year anyway, as will most thirdbasemen. What Joe has consistently struggled with, and is hard to watch, is his throws. Any time he gets a play that isn't bang-bang, he seems lost - his feet, his body angle, his throwing motion all look awkward. And then me make a sidearm throw that sails off target.

 

I really think that's a technique thing - he isn't just throwing instinctively anymore, he's thinking too much. That's something he'll probably get past pretty quickly.

Well he's already booted at least 12 grounders this season (9 of which have gone for errors) so he's already well ahead of the pace on that one.

 

And I actually agree with you on his throws which is one of the reasons why I didn't mention them, I think that aspect of his game has been well covered on here.

[jenksycat]

There's no doubt that Longoria should have been in automatically, and Dye should have gotten the nomination. But at least we've got 2 guys in there I guess.

 

I would have gladly removed Crede if they gave us Dye, and at least 1 pitcher from the best staff in baseball. Although they do owe Crede a couple ASG appearances and some GG's that went to Chavez

 

The MLB should be embarrassed that Marmol is in that game, i don't care how many votes he got, he hasn't thrown a strike in a month.

[elrockinMT]

There used to be a time fans were proud of their all stars.

Now in the Internet/talk show era many fans only are currently jazzed about one of our two all stars.

Sad there's so much Crede hate.

 

 

I agree. I said before that we seem all to ready to eat our young around here. We should value our own players more than we do.

[elrockinMT]

 

I took this from the Sun-Times article today on Crede's staying power. He said he wants to stay with the Sox and here is some comments from an opponent:

 

 

''Do I want to be in Chicago? Absolutely. It's a great city, great fans, it's the perfect situation for me and my family to be there. If not, we'll move on, wherever that might be. As long as I'm playing baseball, I'll be happy.''

 

The baseball world took notice of Crede's impending exit from Chicago.

 

''He's probably the most underrated player in the league,'' Minnesota Twins All-Star closer Joe Nathan said. ''One of those guys who is Gold Glove-caliber defensively. It seems like he is making unbelievable plays, especially against us. Offensively, he kills us. You feel like you make a great pitch to the guy, and he's standing on second base. He fits in perfectly with their lineup.

''That's why I was surprised to see they were talking about getting rid of him. We were like, 'We'll take him if you guys don't want him.'''

Edited July 15, 2008 by elrockinMT

[lostfan]

Damn, what's up with all the self-righteousness? Crede's had a great offensive start to this year that's stagnated lately due to a slump. Defensively, he's had easily the worst year of his career that's far below his standards. Yet he still managed to make the All-Star game probably on the strength of his fast start with power numbers, which probably ended up squeezing out the more deserving Dye. It doesn't take a genius to see that, and bringing that up somehow makes you less of a fan, or a pessimist? Or bashing Crede?

[chitownsportsfan]

Who really cares that he made the All-Star game? Jason Veritek made the all-star game. Marmol made the all star game. Crede has consitantly proven that he'll give you a) an injury risk, B) an OPS+ around 100, and c) good to great defense.

 

Now that he's up for a big contract and is a Boras client I don't see any "hate" -- I call it being realistic. I'm a fan of the White Sox, not a fan of Joe Crede. If he has to go to make the team better I'm not going to shed any tears.

[greg775]

Perhaps if he actually deserved to be there things would be different. But yeah I'm psyched to see him pop out to second in his 1 AB.

 

You got your wish.

 

A lot of all stars didn't deserve to be there.

Joe is a class act; I'm glad he was there. I heard his postgame interview. Class act.

[elrockinMT]

You got your wish.

 

A lot of all stars didn't deserve to be there.

Joe is a class act; I'm glad he was there. I heard his postgame interview. Class act.

 

 

I agree. We need class act people on this club. I think we have a lot of them too and am glad Joe Crede is one of them.

Edited July 16, 2008 by elrockinMT

[BigSqwert]

Who's arguing that Joe is not a classy or good guy?