How To Spend More Efficiently

[Jeremy]

I know it's just Rick Morrisey, but I was horrified to read this sentiment, which some fans must share, in his most recent column:

 

Even today, fans call the radio talk shows to discuss when Fields will no longer be the third baseman-in-waiting. Crazy talk, but it's there. Part of it comes from the assumption that the Sox won't be able to sign free-agent Crede after the season. Part of it comes with the infatuation with the next new thing. Most of it is silly.

 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...,1,43626.column

 

I have a number of problems with Kenny's extreme willingness to move prospects for veterans but IMO the largest problem is that by favoring high priced vets over cheap young talent, we're spending money very inefficiently. Don't get me wrong, I laud Reinsdorf's recent willingness to spend money on this team but whether we have a large or small payroll, spending money wisely is crucial to winning games. While I realize the team would be worse off if Crede had been traded during the offseason, as many of us desired, I don't think that's a reason to consider retaining him beyond the season; the odds that he'll be fifteen times better than Fields (the likely difference between their salaries) or that Fields will experience another lost season are just too slim. Whether that means we'll avoid moving different, more valuable members of the team or that we'll have a large amount of money to add salary via free agency or in a trade, going with Fields over Crede next year should improve the team.

 

Here are a couple more moves I think we can take to spend our money wisely:

 

1. Let Cabrera walk.

 

First, signing him to a large contract will likely be a nightmare. Someone is going to do it, but it's a terrible gamble for a player who posts a middling OBP (.321 career), SLG (.364 this season), and is getting up there in age (33). Best of all, we finally have a great replacement available in Alexei and another in the pipeline in Beckham. Between Getz, who's having a stellar season in AAA, and Richar, who was recently consider our second basemen of the future, we should be able to find a cheap second basemen next season.

 

2. Don't pick up Thome's option.

 

He's been much better than people give him credit for this season but $13 million is a ton of money to pay for a 38 year old DH. Agreeing to a lesser salary (if that's possible after declining the option) is one option. Another is to move Paully to DH and then pursue Texiera, Burrell, or Dunn in free agency.

[witesoxfan]

I'm among those that don't think that the 3Bman will be either Crede or Fields, though Fields definitely is the most likely to be within the organization. I just don't think there's any way the money will be allowed to be spent on such a risky player in Crede, and Fields is far too much of an uncertainty to take over at the hot corner. I don't see Fields within the organization come 2009.

 

Cabrera walking is a near a lock to leave the Sox as Crede is...you'll get two picks for him and you get the rest of the season out of him.

 

I also don't see any choice in Thome...you can't sit one of your best hitters, and his option will vest by the end of the year.

 

But yeah, they're spending money efficiently enough for me...first place come the all star break without much of a hole anywhere in the entire lineup.

[lostfan]

I'm not concerned with how the Sox spend their money as long as they're not the Yankees, and they're getting their best options out there on the field. And in the cases of letting higher-priced options go, getting something in return.

[lostfan]

Also IMO Beckham is too far away from MLB to really consider him in this org's plans, especially knowing KW's tendencies. Let's say that hypothetically, Alexei moves to SS, we get Richar or Getz (or both) up to play 2B and they're doing a fine job. Then Beckham, being a top 10 draft pick, is ready for a call-up. What do you do then? Your middle IF is set. Well then, you trade him for something you need, like a 1B, C, or whatever they'll need in 2010... simple.

[Kalapse]

For what it's worth George Offman mentioned on Sunday that the Phillies will be on the hook for half of Jim Thome's 2009 option. He seemed pretty adamant about it. If they pay exactly half, then the Sox would be on the hook for $6.5M of Jim Thome's 2009 salary. If he finishes out the year strong, I don't see how they could pass that up, hell they'll be paying Jermaine Dye $5M more next year if this is the case.

[Dick Allen]

As long as the Sox remain in first place, I will consider them spending their money efficiently.

[southsider2k5]

For what it's worth George Offman mentioned on Sunday that the Phillies will be on the hook for half of Jim Thome's 2009 option. He seemed pretty adamant about it. If they pay exactly half, then the Sox would be on the hook for $6.5M of Jim Thome's 2009 salary. If he finishes out the year strong, I don't see how they could pass that up, hell they'll be paying Jermaine Dye $5M more next year if this is the case.

 

Even the "bad" Jim Thome is a bargain at 6.5 million.

[jenksycat]

So you want them to spend their money wisely, while at the same time go after soon to be vastly overpaid guys like Tex or Dunn? Doesn't make much sense.

 

Considering how some other teams in our 'league' spend, i'd say the sox are fine: Tigers (Cabrera, Dontrell, Shef) Yankees (almost entire roster) etc.

 

-Swish, a guy comparable to and higher priced/younger Hunter and Rowand, for pennies.

-Q - pennies, many years of service

-Alexi - dirt cheap, 4 years

-2 top 3 starters in Danks and Floyd for nothing

-Guys waiting in the wings like Fields, Owens (a trade chip), Getz, Beckam.

 

Based on that, I'd say we have much more "deals" than overpaid guys.

[chitownsportsfan]

So you want them to spend their money wisely, while at the same time go after soon to be vastly overpaid guys like Tex or Dunn? Doesn't make much sense.

 

Considering how some other teams in our 'league' spend, i'd say the sox are fine: Tigers (Cabrera, Dontrell, Shef) Yankees (almost entire roster) etc.

 

-Swish, a guy comparable to and higher priced/younger Hunter and Rowand, for pennies.

-Q - pennies, many years of service

-Alexi - dirt cheap, 4 years

-2 top 3 starters in Danks and Floyd for nothing

-Guys waiting in the wings like Fields, Owens (a trade chip), Getz, Beckam.

 

Based on that, I'd say we have much more "deals" than overpaid guys.

 

 

Uh, Contreras, Kong, that's 22 million right there. The White Sox aren't among the most efficient spending clubs, but they aren't the worst either. Having a large payroll allows for a greater margin of error, which is why they are in 1st despite the money wasted on Kong and Count.

 

That is alarming though that so many fans want to sign Crede to a long term deal. He's an above average all-around 3B with a history of back problems and will demand every penny this winter. I'm thinking he'll want like a 4-5 year deal at about 8-10 million per. If some team wants that than fine. I"ll take Fields and his 325,000 and spend that other 8-10 million somewhere else.

[NYSox35]

Uh, Contreras, Kong, that's 22 million right there. The White Sox aren't among the most efficient spending clubs, but they aren't the worst either. Having a large payroll allows for a greater margin of error, which is why they are in 1st despite the money wasted on Kong and Count.

 

That is alarming though that so many fans want to sign Crede to a long term deal. He's an above average all-around 3B with a history of back problems and will demand every penny this winter. I'm thinking he'll want like a 4-5 year deal at about 8-10 million per. If some team wants that than fine. I"ll take Fields and his 325,000 and spend that other 8-10 million somewhere else.

 

If it's 4 years @ 8 million per for Joe, count me in! That is pretty damn reasonable.

He'll give us a much better all around 3B than Fields w/o hurting our budget elsewhere.

[Balta1701]

If it's 4 years @ 8 million per for Joe, count me in! That is pretty damn reasonable.

He'll give us a much better all around 3B than Fields w/o hurting our budget elsewhere.

I know that'd be a real good price for Joe, and I think you'd have to sign him for it...but i'm always going to be nervous about signing a guy to more than a 1-2 year deal when he's already had a major back problem.

[Jeremy]

I'm among those that don't think that the 3Bman will be either Crede or Fields, though Fields definitely is the most likely to be within the organization. I just don't think there's any way the money will be allowed to be spent on such a risky player in Crede, and Fields is far too much of an uncertainty to take over at the hot corner. I don't see Fields within the organization come 2009.

 

I don't understand what's risky about Fields; it seemed we nearly had him penned in as our starting third basemen for the next several years entering spring training. Is it just that he's a high strikeout player and has had a down year so far this season? Neither seems like a huge concern to me. My next question would be, what type of player are we looking at as our next 3B? Fields has looked like a rock solid young player much of the time IMO and will make something like $400,000 next season. Do you really want to pay someone else $8 million or $12 million (if that's even in the budget) next season? I'd much rather spend it on a different position.

 

I also don't see any choice in Thome...you can't sit one of your best hitters, and his option will vest by the end of the year.

 

Well if it's true that we'd only be on the hook for $6.5 million, it's a no brainer. Wouldn't you rather sign Texiera or Dunn for $15 million than bring back Thome for $13 million though? I certainly would.

 

By my calculations, Thome is on pace to exceed the number of plate appearances he needs for the option to kick in by only 30, so I'd say it's far from a lock.

 

But yeah, they're spending money efficiently enough for me...first place come the all star break without much of a hole anywhere in the entire lineup.

 

As long as the Sox remain in first place, I will consider them spending their money efficiently.

 

I'll never understand why some Sox fans are so incredibly sensitive about any amount of criticism directed at the organization, no matter how constructive. Look, I'm happy we're in first place and think we obviously made some smart moves to get there but I don't see why that would make the organization infallible. You don't think that even if we win 95 games it's not impossible we could've made more moves in the past or can make more moves in the future to win even more? I want the organization to make the best decisions possible whether we're on pace to win 100 games or 50.

 

Also IMO Beckham is too far away from MLB to really consider him in this org's plans, especially knowing KW's tendencies. Let's say that hypothetically, Alexei moves to SS, we get Richar or Getz (or both) up to play 2B and they're doing a fine job. Then Beckham, being a top 10 draft pick, is ready for a call-up. What do you do then? Your middle IF is set. Well then, you trade him for something you need, like a 1B, C, or whatever they'll need in 2010... simple.

 

I'd rather trade Getz or Richar, unless one of those guys suddenly looks like a perennial All-Star. Those types of players aren't too hard to come by whereas Beckham is the team's first top ten pick in many years. Let's give him a shot to stick with the organization.

 

So you want them to spend their money wisely, while at the same time go after soon to be vastly overpaid guys like Tex or Dunn? Doesn't make much sense.

 

Considering how some other teams in our 'league' spend, i'd say the sox are fine: Tigers (Cabrera, Dontrell, Shef) Yankees (almost entire roster) etc.

 

-Swish, a guy comparable to and higher priced/younger Hunter and Rowand, for pennies.

-Q - pennies, many years of service

-Alexi - dirt cheap, 4 years

-2 top 3 starters in Danks and Floyd for nothing

-Guys waiting in the wings like Fields, Owens (a trade chip), Getz, Beckam.

 

Based on that, I'd say we have much more "deals" than overpaid guys.

 

Ok, well if we're saving money with those guys - which is the main thing that I advocated in my post - how would you like the save the money we spend if not on players like Texiera or Dunn? Those guys probably aren't even options if Thome's option is just $6.5 million, since Konerko is pretty much unmovable but I'd much rather spend $15 million on one of those guys and go with Fields, Getz, or Richar than spend $15 million combined to resign Cabrera and Crede.

 

 

[Balta1701]

I don't understand what's risky about Fields; it seemed we nearly had him penned in as our starting third basemen for the next several years entering spring training. Is it just that he's a high strikeout player and has had a down year so far this season? Neither seems like a huge concern to me. My next question would be, what type of player are we looking at as our next 3B? Fields has looked like a rock solid young player much of the time IMO and will make something like $400,000 next season. Do you really want to pay someone else $8 million or $12 million (if that's even in the budget) next season? I'd much rather spend it on a different position.

You're leaving one potential item out...Josh Fields wouldn't stay with this organization too long if Mr. Crede were resigned. He'd clearly be dealt for some piece that would hopefully be moderately useful elsewhere.

 

If you can get Joe Crede signed for what you'd have to think is below market value, I think you have to do so and then move Fields if you're intending on competing next year. We're not in a rebuilding mode right now, as evidenced by the fact that we're at the top of the Central, and holding Crede and trading fields makes us better if Crede is resigned at a reasonable amount. Btu with a Boras client...how many ever sign for reasonable amounts?

[Chisoxfn]

If it's 4 years @ 8 million per for Joe, count me in! That is pretty damn reasonable.

He'll give us a much better all around 3B than Fields w/o hurting our budget elsewhere.

I'd expect around 4yrs @ 12 million per. He could even end up getting more.

[santo=dorf]

Well if it's true that we'd only be on the hook for $6.5 million, it's a no brainer. Wouldn't you rather sign Texiera or Dunn for $15 million than bring back Thome for $13 million though? I certainly would.

 

Ok, well if we're saving money with those guys - which is the main thing that I advocated in my post - how would you like the save the money we spend if not on players like Texiera or Dunn? Those guys probably aren't even options if Thome's option is just $6.5 million, since Konerko is pretty much unmovable but I'd much rather spend $15 million on one of those guys and go with Fields, Getz, or Richar than spend $15 million combined to resign Cabrera and Crede.

Neither of those players are going to be just $15 million. They're looking for multi year deals, and Boras said ehe expects Teixeira to get 8-10 years at $23 million per.

[Jeremy]

I think the dollar figures people are throwing out for Crede are a bit nuts. I actually have a bet with a friend of mine that he won't get $10 million or more a season. How often to you see a one-time All-Star (who shouldn't have even made the team this season) cash in for a massive pay day? I could understand if he was having a monster season this year, because teams are often stupid like that, but he's not. He ranks 20th among third basement in VORP and 13th out of 21 qualifying third basemen in OPS. It's tougher to argue that his defense makes up for that in light of his propensity to make errors this season.

 

You're leaving one potential item out...Josh Fields wouldn't stay with this organization too long if Mr. Crede were resigned. He'd clearly be dealt for some piece that would hopefully be moderately useful elsewhere.

 

If you can get Joe Crede signed for what you'd have to think is below market value, I think you have to do so and then move Fields if you're intending on competing next year. We're not in a rebuilding mode right now, as evidenced by the fact that we're at the top of the Central, and holding Crede and trading fields makes us better if Crede is resigned at a reasonable amount. Btu with a Boras client...how many ever sign for reasonable amounts?

 

What's a reasonable amount though? $8 million? I don't see how that's a steal when you have Fields, who can probably put up numbers at least 85% as good as Crede at one twentieth of the cost. You're then spending money even more inefficiently if instead of trading Fields for another young player, you acquire a good but not great veteran who makes a lot of money.

[Vance Law]

I have a number of problems with Kenny's extreme willingness to move prospects for veterans but IMO the largest problem is that by favoring high priced vets over cheap young talent

 

It does suck to be stuck with Quentin, Alexei, Swisher, Danks, Floyd, and Jenks as 6 of your 15 main guys.

 

 

 

2. Don't pick up Thome's option.

 

He's been much better than people give him credit for this season but $13 million is a ton of money to pay for a 38 year old DH.

Someone should stick this on the front page of the site as it's come up so many times:

Philadelphia picks up half of Thome's option next year.

 

Anyone who doesn't give him credit (I understand that you are giving him credit, Jeremy) for this season is an idiot, ignorant, or both. #14 in the AL in OPS. #8 in homers. He would be leading 7 AL teams in OPS and 10 AL teams in homers. That on the back of 06 and 07 where he is a top 5 AL hitter over those 2 years, probably top 3 after Papi and A-Rod.

 

[witesoxfan]

I don't understand what's risky about Fields; it seemed we nearly had him penned in as our starting third basemen for the next several years entering spring training. Is it just that he's a high strikeout player and has had a down year so far this season? Neither seems like a huge concern to me. My next question would be, what type of player are we looking at as our next 3B? Fields has looked like a rock solid young player much of the time IMO and will make something like $400,000 next season. Do you really want to pay someone else $8 million or $12 million (if that's even in the budget) next season? I'd much rather spend it on a different position.

 

I want nothing to do with Crede next year; that said, I have my fears about Josh Fields and I just get a sort of vibe from the White Sox organization that they are not a huge fan of his looking towards the future. A high strikeout rate, a low average, and an inability to hit a fastball to go along with a hitch in his swing that is probably the biggest reason why he can't catch up to the fastball leave me thinking that Fields is more likely to be a bust than a #5 hitter. Sure, if that hitch is ever fixed and he can catch up to the fastball while recognizing the breaking ball and only striking out 150 times, he could be a Ryan Howard type prescence in the lineup, but I see a Rob Deer prescence in the lineup far more likely at this point in time.

 

That said, if any and every option for 3B outside of Fields runs out (because I won't even consider Crede at this point...World Series experience, "clutch" player, Silver Slugger, and now All-Star appearance to go with 25-30 homer power and "gold glove" defense at 3B...it's Boras's dream come true and Crede could quite possibly become Bobby Higginson part deux), then Fields becomes the 3Bman and it's not a huge issue...he should be a league average player over there, he's just not ideal at this point.

 

 

 

Well if it's true that we'd only be on the hook for $6.5 million, it's a no brainer. Wouldn't you rather sign Texiera or Dunn for $15 million than bring back Thome for $13 million though? I certainly would.

 

Not really...I'll take Tex or Dunn at 1 year and $15 mill over Thome at 1 year and $13 mill, but not 6 years and $105 mill or something like that with either Dunn or Tex...then I'll take Thome at 1 year and $16 mill before that, and Thome will cost $10 mill less than that.

 

 

I'll never understand why some Sox fans are so incredibly sensitive about any amount of criticism directed at the organization, no matter how constructive. Look, I'm happy we're in first place and think we obviously made some smart moves to get there but I don't see why that would make the organization infallible. You don't think that even if we win 95 games it's not impossible we could've made more moves in the past or can make more moves in the future to win even more? I want the organization to make the best decisions possible whether we're on pace to win 100 games or 50.

 

I've never said the organization is infallible or that they can't do anything wrong; they aren't being terribly inefficient with their money though either. There are like 2 out of 25 players on this roster that are making a considerable amount of money and aren't performing the way they should - PK and Uribe. I don't consider Contreras because he's been just slightly worse than a league average pitcher this year, and he's more than likely just ready for this rest he's gotten now or a minimum DL stint if that's not good enough for him. Compare him to the extreme - Miguel Batista making $9 mill and putting up a 6.22 ERA or Mike Hampton who's thrown like 3 pitches or something like that - and his salary looks pretty damn reasonable. Meanwhile, they've gotten pennies on the dollar for like 10+ players on this roster right now, are in first place, and, atleast to me, are in a prime position to go on a huge run during the second half and win 92-95 games and make their way into the playoffs. If I'm the only one that sees it this way, then I'll just merely disagree with anyone else.

 

They could also try and pump the minor league system full of more talent, but KW has been trying to do that for 3-4 years now and he has apparently gotten to the source of the problem and is attempting to deal with it. It's on the rise, and I'd say that at some point within the next 5 years, the White Sox will have a top 10 minor league system again.

 

 

 

[joejoedairy]

That is alarming though that so many fans want to sign Crede to a long term deal. He's an above average all-around 3B with a history of back problems and will demand every penny this winter. I'm thinking he'll want like a 4-5 year deal at about 8-10 million per. If some team wants that than fine. I"ll take Fields and his 325,000 and spend that other 8-10 million somewhere else.

 

Ben Sheets!

 

[TLAK]

For what it's worth George Offman mentioned on Sunday that the Phillies will be on the hook for half of Jim Thome's 2009 option. He seemed pretty adamant about it. If they pay exactly half, then the Sox would be on the hook for $6.5M of Jim Thome's 2009 salary. If he finishes out the year strong, I don't see how they could pass that up, hell they'll be paying Jermaine Dye $5M more next year if this is the case.

I would not give much weight to anything Offman or his partner Rodgers say about baseball. I still chuckle when I remember them proposing that the cub trade a draft choice to Florida to get Joe Girardi as Manager.

[YASNY]

Joe Crede is best the best 3B this team has seen since Robin Ventura. Good 3B's don't grow on trees. If we can keep him, we need to ... even with the uncharacteristic defensive lapses he'd had this year.

[witesoxfan]

Joe Crede is best the best 3B this team has seen since Robin Ventura. Good 3B's don't grow on trees. If we can keep him, we need to ... even with the uncharacteristic defensive lapses he'd had this year.

 

I disagree completely. I seem to recall our own resident doctor saying that it's not a matter of "if" his back gives out but rather "when" his back gives out again (and it could happen at any time, as I understand it, be it tomorrow or 10 years from now); people want to consider giving a Paul Konerko type contract to a 3Bman who is not that good offensively overall but on top of it all has major back concerns?

 

I'll take my chance with Josh Fields/Wes Helms/Juan Uribe on a short term deal and struggle rather than give a monster deal to Crede, compete next year, and then 2 years from now see him essentially ruined as a player and be stuck with that albatross of a contract.

Edited July 16, 2008 by witesoxfan

[StrangeSox]

Joe Crede is best the best 3B this team has seen since Robin Ventura. Good 3B's don't grow on trees. If we can keep him, we need to ... even with the uncharacteristic defensive lapses he'd had this year.

 

How many 3B have the Sox even had between Ventura leaving in 1999 and Crede becoming the starter in 2003? It's not like we're talking about the best 3B this team has seen in decades.

[YASNY]

How many 3B have the Sox even had between Ventura leaving in 1999 and Crede becoming the starter in 2003? It's not like we're talking about the best 3B this team has seen in decades.

 

Didn't say we were. Robin was by far the best we saw for decades. But take a look at the Mets for example, they went decades without finding a good 3B. Crede's not God's gift, but he's a pretty damn solid 3B.

[Balta1701]

Didn't say we were. Robin was by far the best we saw for decades. But take a look at the Mets for example, they went decades without finding a good 3B. Crede's not God's gift, but he's a pretty damn solid 3B.

While there are teams like the Mets and the Cubs that go forever without finding a long term solution at 3b, I don't think it's any harder of a position to fill for a couple seasons than any other.

 

I just went through, for example, the 3rd base stats this year. Right now, there are 21 3rd baseman with enough at bats to qualify for season-awards. That's the same as 2nd base and 1 more than for SS. Out of them, Joe is in the middle of the pack in OPS this season, but there are only 3 guys you'd basically say "No" to their numbers; Mora, Castillo, and Hannahan. And on top of that, there are still big 3b names that are out injured (Zimmerman).

 

It's always nice to have 10 years of stability at a position, but I don't think it's a requirement for any slot, and I don't think 3b is particularly harder to fill than any other important defensive position. If you have youth somewhere then you can find the money to afford one if you're not holding on to one.