Bulls ink Deng!

[SleepyWhiteSox]

That nitetrain post didn't merit a respone...

 

Anyways, I already know the real answer, but I sure do hope pax actually has made some sort of real effort to maybe aquire Josh Smith. It's just too bad they're set at both guard spots as packaging tyrus and gordon and/or hinrich along with picks would have been nice to get him. I don't really know the financial paramaters, though. Still, if they're looking to unload him, pax should be trying. I doubt it, though. He had a hard enough time with the two obvious moves he needed to make this offseason (drafting Rose and extending Deng)...

[RockRaines]

I don't care what Scott Skiles says - Ben Gordon is a horses*** defender. He can say what he wants, but I see the same games he does.

 

Gordon is an elite shooter and the only current Bull that's good to drop 35 on any given night but that's literally all he's good for. You have to get him the ball on every other possession with an open shot because he can't create for himself, and you can't rely on him to get the ball to anybody else either. It's like all he does is wait for the ball.

Hughes can drop 35 on a team any given night, and will actually play very good defense. Gordon is gone, and for good reason.

[Balta1701]

Hughes can drop 35 on a team any given night, and will actually play very good defense. Gordon is gone, and for good reason.

Actually, I disagree on the "Very" there. Hughes is one of those opportunistic defenders, where a decent amount of time he'll make a big play like a steal or a turnover happen for you, but an equal portion of the time he'll get himself out of position or something along those lines and that'll wind up leading to points. I mean, even when he was with Washington, you never exactly thought that they were going to be shutting anyone down on another team even if Hughes was guarding their best scorer. He's a couple steps above Gordon on defense certainly, but if I want a shutdown defender out of the guys we have give me either Thabo or Kirk.

[Metz]

So Wilbon on PTI just said that Ben Gordon has been thinking about going across sea, I never really thought about that but he could very well do it and the Bulls get nothing out of it, I think. Anyways thoughts from that.

[nitetrain8601]

That nitetrain post didn't merit a respone...

 

Anyways, I already know the real answer, but I sure do hope pax actually has made some sort of real effort to maybe aquire Josh Smith. It's just too bad they're set at both guard spots as packaging tyrus and gordon and/or hinrich along with picks would have been nice to get him. I don't really know the financial paramaters, though. Still, if they're looking to unload him, pax should be trying. I doubt it, though. He had a hard enough time with the two obvious moves he needed to make this offseason (drafting Rose and extending Deng)...

 

Your post doesn't deserve a response, but I'll respond anyway. Josh Smith is 99.9% unattainable for the Bulls. Not even worth looking into because if a S&T is done, he has BYC status. Read the CBA, find out salaries and tell me one way in which a Josh Smith is available for the Bulls.

 

Nevermind that though, let's guess, he could be a big SG for the Chicago Bulls, though he would be playing out of position.

 

At least he would be a great defender. Yes, because even after being rated #1 overall for 3 years in a row (with Kirk guarding SG's and Ben guarding PG's), that got us 3 championships. Oh wait, it only got us 1 playoff round victory. That's the problem with Chicago teams in general, fans love to concentrate on defense, defense, defense, because it shows off work ethic somehow, but don't want to think or realize that you can be rated #1 overall and still not win s*** if you have no offense which is the problem with the Bears and Bulls and was the problem with the Blackhawks when Dale first took over.

 

Defense doesn't win championships, balance does.

 

And the reason why I think Gordon should get the same contract if not more is because he has proven to be this team's best player over the past 4 years. He's had the team's best work ethic, and has improved his defensive game, regardless of the false facts some fans want to hang onto saying Scott Skiles knows nothing about defense or the Bulls. He's also a lot more dynamic of a player than Deng is. The problem is not Gordon wanting more, the problem is the Bulls rewarding Deng for a s*** season and way overpaying him.

[lostfan]

If you want your balance then how about trading for a player that can score consistently via something other than a jump shot.

[SoxFan1]

Your post doesn't deserve a response, but I'll respond anyway. Josh Smith is 99.9% unattainable for the Bulls. Not even worth looking into because if a S&T is done, he has BYC status. Read the CBA, find out salaries and tell me one way in which a Josh Smith is available for the Bulls.

 

Nevermind that though, let's guess, he could be a big SG for the Chicago Bulls, though he would be playing out of position.

 

At least he would be a great defender. Yes, because even after being rated #1 overall for 3 years in a row (with Kirk guarding SG's and Ben guarding PG's), that got us 3 championships. Oh wait, it only got us 1 playoff round victory. That's the problem with Chicago teams in general, fans love to concentrate on defense, defense, defense, because it shows off work ethic somehow, but don't want to think or realize that you can be rated #1 overall and still not win s*** if you have no offense which is the problem with the Bears and Bulls and was the problem with the Blackhawks when Dale first took over.

 

Defense doesn't win championships, balance does.

 

And the reason why I think Gordon should get the same contract if not more is because he has proven to be this team's best player over the past 4 years. He's had the team's best work ethic, and has improved his defensive game, regardless of the false facts some fans want to hang onto saying Scott Skiles knows nothing about defense or the Bulls. He's also a lot more dynamic of a player than Deng is. The problem is not Gordon wanting more, the problem is the Bulls rewarding Deng for a s*** season and way overpaying him.

I didn't know Ben Gordon posted at SoxTalk.

[Rowand44]

Defense doesn't win championships, balance does.

Amazing that a top 2 defensive team ALWAYS wins the championship.

[Balta1701]

If you want your balance then how about trading for a player that can score consistently via something other than a jump shot.

Hopefully...we have that player already, and his name is Derrick. His job is to become a guy who consistently creates open shots for other people on the team. That's what makes CP3 and DW so effective...they get theirs, but they create opportunities for everyone else as well.

[ZoomSlowik]

Your post doesn't deserve a response, but I'll respond anyway. Josh Smith is 99.9% unattainable for the Bulls. Not even worth looking into because if a S&T is done, he has BYC status. Read the CBA, find out salaries and tell me one way in which a Josh Smith is available for the Bulls.

 

This is the only thing I'm going to bother responding to. If he's traded immediately the base year compensation isn't a factor, only after we acquire him. That's the whole point of a sign-and-trade, it wouldn't ever be an option if the base year compensation rules applied immediately. A trade would very easily be feasible financially with any number of players, however there isn't a particularly good match on the Bulls in terms of talent.

Edited July 31, 2008 by ZoomSlowik

[nitetrain8601]

For people who say Gordon isn't clutch anymore, only LeBron, Kobe, Dirk and Manu were better scorers in the clutch. Deng is nowhere near 5th.

 

http://82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

 

As for top defensive teams winning the championship, um I'm pretty sure Boston didn't suck on offense or was even in the middle of the pack. Same goes for San Antonio the year before.

 

I'd venture to guess, the champions for the past 25 years were above average offensive squads. And I'd venture to guess, not all of them or even half of them were #1 rated overall defensively.

[ZoomSlowik]

Gotta love that 37.7% field goal percentage and 4.1 TO in the clutch too. And the fact that 61% of them were assisted so it's not like he's the one creating the shots. If you're on a team that plays a lot of close games like the Bulls did of course the #1 option is going to score a few times nearly by default.

[nitetrain8601]

Looked it up this year, Boston was ranked #2 defensively in Opponent's Points Per Game while ranking 11 offensively.

 

SAS were ranked 2nd in defense, but 4th in offense.

MIA the year before, 5th in defense, 10th in offense

SAS the year before that was 1st in defense, and 8th in offense.

 

I looked for just the past 10 years, but only 3 teams rated #1 overall defensively won rings. The most dominant team of that era, the LAL were 1, 19,7 in the 3 years they won the championship, defensively. Meanwhile in those same years, they were rated 4, 2, and 2 in those respective years offensively. Again, balance wins championships and history shows that. Not just defense, and not just offense. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between.

 

 

[nitetrain8601]

Gotta love that 37.7% field goal percentage and 4.1 TO in the clutch too. And the fact that 61% of them were assisted so it's not like he's the one creating the shots. If you're on a team that plays a lot of close games like the Bulls did of course the #1 option is going to score a few times nearly by default.

 

GM MIN +- +- FGA FG% 3PA 3P% FTA FT% PTS Asst'd REB AST T/O Blk STL

CHI Deng 26 79 -38 -23 14.1 .435 0.6 .000 4.9 50% 14.7 50% 7.9 1.8 0.6 1.2 1.8

CHI Gordon 31 118 -52 -21 28.2 .377 9.8 .458 18.0 90% 42.0 61% 2.9 2.9 4.1 0.0 1.2

 

Stats suggest Gordon isn't afraid to shoot the ball unlike Deng, he's hot from the 3 point line when it comes down to it, hits his FT's and gets to the line moreso than what everyone wants to suggest, and that means getting to the line more than Deng, obviously scores more points as well. And yes, Gordon is assisted as the PG in the Bulls system carries the rock alot more. In the 4th, who do you have more faith in, Gordon or Deng? It's Gordon all the way. That's why numbers suggest Hinrich and Duhon were much better when Gordon was their guard counterpart. Deng does average much better than Gordon, but that's what happens when you play in the frontcourt and you're not a "midget". Gordon gets more assists in the clutch, but does also average more turnovers. That's what happens when they ask you to bail the team out. Deng is a better blocker which is expected. Deng gets more steals, but not much.

 

Again, stats show, Deng goes quiet in crunch time. Keep in mind, Nocioni and Joe Smith were better scorers in the clutch last year too over Deng. Deng ranked around where bench players ranked which is not good for an 80 million dollar guy.

[ZoomSlowik]

I'm not trying to argue that Deng is a monster in the clutch, you are with Gordon. If you shoot enough you're going to score, that doesn't mean he's good/efficient at it as those stats show. He's among the worst in the league in clutch TO's and his clutch shooting percentage was sub-par too. Just because he's OUR #1 option late doesn't mean he's a good one. Maybe if Gordon would actually let Deng shoot the ball he'd have more impressive numbers in those situations, Ben had twice as many attempts. The PG argument is BS too, the majority of the people that are up there aren't PG's either and most are well under Gordon on that percentage. He's at his best as a catch and shoot player so other people have to force the action, Ben doesn't fair well when he tries to do it. Also, statistically the Bulls' best unit was Hinrich/Hughes/Deng/Gooden/Noah by a fairly wide margin (though none were particularly good), so I don't see how Gordon "clearly" makes their PG's better. For all of his amazing offensive prowess he scored a whopping 1.8 more points per game than Deng in his "s***" year. Neither player is a true difference maker, but Deng brings a lot more to the table. Luol has led the team in PER each of the last three years and hasn't exactly been blown away in scoring. It's not THAT hard to find guys that can score and do nothing else (especially for the kind of money he wants), just look at guys like Ricky Davis or half of the Knicks' roster.

Edited July 31, 2008 by ZoomSlowik

[nitetrain8601]

This is the only thing I'm going to bother responding to. If he's traded immediately the base year compensation isn't a factor, only after we acquire him. That's the whole point of a sign-and-trade, it wouldn't ever be an option if the base year compensation rules applied immediately. A trade would very easily be feasible financially with any number of players, however there isn't a particularly good match on the Bulls in terms of talent.

 

Nope. Say we give Josh Smith the 13 million he wants. So okay, for us, we could send them Hughes since he equals 13 million. It works perfectly for us, so woohoo. Not so fast, because Josh Smith would automatically become BYC, and yes it is a factor because he's signing the contract with Atlanta. So therefore, the 13 million we are sending does not equal the 6.5 million they are sending out. Therefore, trade does not work.

 

So basically, with BYC, the outgoing contract would equal 100% to the new team the player is going to, but the team he is leaving only could worry about half of the outgoing contract.

[ZoomSlowik]

Nope. Say we give Josh Smith the 13 million he wants. So okay, for us, we could send them Hughes since he equals 13 million. It works perfectly for us, so woohoo. Not so fast, because Josh Smith would automatically become BYC, and yes it is a factor because he's signing the contract with Atlanta. So therefore, the 13 million we are sending does not equal the 6.5 million they are sending out. Therefore, trade does not work.

 

So basically, with BYC, the outgoing contract would equal 100% to the new team the player is going to, but the team he is leaving only could worry about half of the outgoing contract.

 

If that were the case, how the heck would the rumored deal to Golden State happen? Harrington and Jackson have set contracts too, big ones. Sign and trades aren't subject to all of the normal rules.

Edited July 31, 2008 by ZoomSlowik

[nitetrain8601]

I'm not trying to argue that Deng is a monster in the clutch, you are with Gordon. If you shoot enough you're going to score, that doesn't mean he's good/efficient at it as those stats show. He's among the worst in the league in clutch TO's and his clutch shooting percentage was sub-par too. Just because he's OUR #1 option late doesn't mean he's a good one. Maybe if Gordon would actually let Deng shoot the ball he'd have more impressive numbers in those situations, Ben had twice as many attempts. The PG argument is BS too, the majority of the people that are up there aren't PG's either and most are well under Gordon on that percentage. He's at his best as a catch and shoot player so other people have to force the action, Ben doesn't fair well when he tries to do it. Also, statistically the Bulls' best unit was Hinrich/Hughes/Deng/Gooden/Noah by a fairly wide margin (though none were particularly good), so I don't see how Gordon "clearly" makes their PG's better. For all of his amazing offensive prowess he scored a whopping 1.8 more points per game than Deng in his "s***" year. Neither player is a true difference maker, but Deng brings a lot more to the table. Luol has led the team in PER each of the last three years and hasn't exactly been blown away in scoring. It's not THAT hard to find guys that can score and do nothing else (especially for the kind of money he wants), just look at guys like Ricky Davis or half of the Knicks' roster.

 

You did not just compare Ricky Davis to Ben Gordon, did you? I won't take that seriously.

 

And how do you explain Joe Smith and Andres Nocioni doing better scoring wise than Deng? It's because no one has faith in him in the 4th and he doesn't like that stage. Luol doesn't try to do it because his mentality isn't set to do so. Let's put it this way, how many times have you ever seen Deng demand the ball? How many times have you seen him post up a smaller player and call for the rock, just once? None. How many times have you seen him blow past a player? Never. And to say Gordon is a catch and shoot player is saying Deng is Richard Hamilton without the 3 point shot.

 

http://www.82games.com/0708/07CHI9A.HTM

Deng had 67% of his shots assisted last year. The year before, 69% of his shots were assisted. Gordon on the other hand, 52% this year, 45% of his shots assisted in 06-07. The reason why I included 06-07 was because that was both their best year. So there is no way you can tell me Gordon is a catch and shoot player and then not going to mention that Deng is more of an abuser of getting his shots set up by others.

[nitetrain8601]

If that were the case, how the heck would the rumored deal to Golden State happen? Harrington and Jackson have set contracts too, big ones. Sign and trades aren't subject to all of the normal rules.

 

Well Speedy Claxton and someone else are rumored to be going. That's what they're trying to figure out. Minny is rumored to be involved in the deal, but not much is known on what they would give up.

[Balta1701]

Well Speedy Claxton and someone else are rumored to be going. That's what they're trying to figure out. Minny is rumored to be involved in the deal, but not much is known on what they would give up.

How would this deal help the Celtics then?

[nitetrain8601]

How would this deal help the Celtics then?

 

[sircaffey]

http://www.82games.com/0708/07CHI9A.HTM

Deng had 67% of his shots assisted last year. The year before, 69% of his shots were assisted. Gordon on the other hand, 52% this year, 45% of his shots assisted in 06-07. The reason why I included 06-07 was because that was both their best year. So there is no way you can tell me Gordon is a catch and shoot player and then not going to mention that Deng is more of an abuser of getting his shots set up by others.

 

And how many times have you seen Gordon dribble around at the top of the key for a while and chuck up a 3? A bizzilion...

[ZoomSlowik]

Quoted from the Collective Bargaining Agreement:

 

In the event a Rookie Scale Contract is extended pursuant to Section 7(B) above and a Team proposes to trade such Contract to another Team prior to the July 1 immediately following such extension, then, only for purposes of determining whether the acquiring Team has Room for the Contract, the Salary for the last Season of the original term of the Contract shall be deemed to equal the average of the aggregate Salaries for such Season and each Season of the extended term.

 

 

So assuming they signed him to the same 6-70 as Deng got his value would be just over 10 mil, making him a highly viable trade candidate.

[rangercal]

With the right Offense and a --------------------->True PG

 

 

Deng,Gordon,Rose is what I want to see.

 

Make it happen Pax!

[nitetrain8601]

And how many times have you seen Gordon dribble around at the top of the key for a while and chuck up a 3? A bizzilion...

 

You may have confused him with Hinrich.