Twins Love Needs To End

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I don't disagree with a lot that has been said. This series was gigantic, and the Sox really s*** the bed. I suppose it could have been a lot worse, but the fashion the Sox lost was pretty devastating. To have 3 of the 4 games in your hands against the team that is breathing down your neck as piss two of them away is inexcusable.

 

 

With that said, I am going to remain optimistic, especially if this next 3 gamer is a success. The Sox August is loaded with home games. I don't fear any team that comes into the Cell with the way the Sox have played at home. I am one of the last Contreras fans on the board, so my optimism isn't going to be felt by most, but I am encouraged by the sound of the side session Jose had. I expect him to come back strong after a break. Same goes for Joe. This is crutch time, and I expect the guys to step up down the stretch. I pray Linebrink can come back sometime in August healthy, as it will be a tremendous boost to the entire bullpen, and team.

 

 

Put this series behind us, leave the Dome in the rear view mirror, and hope for another Royal beating.

 

How dare you have perspective and post with a reasonable calmness. And you call yourself a fan ! I spit in your general direction. Patooie !!

 

 

[Jake]

I think this Royals series is a good chance to build some confidence. I believe the addition of Griffey will energize the club and picking up some wins will get us mentally ready for what's ahead.

[caulfield12]

I actually think our offense and starting rotation will be fine and even above average, especially the offense. The problem is the bullpen is injured and performing terribly, and I'm not sure if that is going to change. Also, I think the defense will cut down the error totals as time goes on, but our lack of range on defense could get us killed. It just feels so much like 2003, hopefully I am wrong though because like in 2003, I love this roster. It just feels uneasy right now.

 

 

 

Let's not forget, the Twins lost four in a row earlier in the season at the Cell. Both of these teams, along with the Tigers, are quite flawed. For whatever reasons, Thornton and Dotel really seem to struggle when we have huge outs to get...the outs that Hermanson and Jenks routinely got to end games in 2005.

 

I don't know what will happen...sure, like in 2003, the White Sox are a better team on paper, but that doesn't mean much at all. The scary thing is that the White Sox were clearly a better defensive team at the beginning of the season than the Twins, and now they're not. You look at Crede, Cabrera, Ramirez and Swisher in the infield, those are four guys capable of winning Gold Gloves, although Cabrera's losing range and I don't Joe's 100% healthy.

 

After the Twins beat up on the Indians and probably jump into first place by a game or so (because we always figure out ways to lose one game we should have against the Royals), they play 30 out of 45 games on the road. Counterbalanced against this fact is the looming presence of Liriano...probably to replace Hernandez.

 

The irony is that the 2005 team with Pods and the bullpen tried in some ways to mirror Twins' ball, especially with the fundamentals, execution, sacrificing yourself for the good of the team (I'm thinking Iguchi primarily)....KW wanted to build a team to compete with Minnesota, it happened for one season...but then we added Thome to replace Rowand, Konerko and Dye seemed to get "old" the last couple of seasons and now we have Ken Griffey, Jr.

 

Thank god for Quentin, Ramirez, Danks and Floyd...because our farm system hasn't produced much of anything since Buehrle/Rowand/Crede. At least there is some moderate hope for the future, although I expected a lot more out of Swisher than he has delivered. Still, the White Sox are in a vulnerable position, with no prospects in the pipeline (well, Poreda I guess is at least a year way) and yet a rapidly declining/aging team looking to replace Crede, Thome and Cabrera...and the biggest concerns are probably the health (mentally and physically) of Konerko and Contreras, who we are both on the hook for $35-40 million over the 09/10 seasons.

 

 

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

Because the point of the thread was the never ending ass sucking Hawk does on the air for the Twins. It. Gets. Old. Complimenting is one thing. Sucking ass for 9 straight innings of a 4 game set is another.

 

It does get old, but so does blowing a multi-run lead against the Twins. You don't hear much verbal ass pats aside from the generic spiels when we're playing KC, but who has been nipping at our heels all season/taking vital games from us in heartbreaking manner: Royals or Twins? The Twins played a great series, Hawk was frustrated by this, his comments were his way of venting those feelings.

Edited August 1, 2008 by ChiSox35

[BobDylan]

Logan is definitely done, I don't think anyone here would disagree with that statement. He is just terrible unless he has that sweeping slider vs. lefties, and can throw it for strikes

 

The problem with why our pen was so terrible, well it was a few specific things

 

1. they were pitching scared. whether it was playing in the dome, and it being ridiculously loud or playing behind another teams fans, they were scared shi*less

2. the score was close, and they were afraid of the twins taking the lead.

3. as a result of pitching scared, they were falling behind hitters 1-0, 2-0. Thornton had Mauer at fu*king 3-1 for cryin out loud

 

When every single guy you run out to the mound cannot locate his pitches, it's not a coincedence. They're all under the same mindset: Scared of pitching to contact, afraid of giving up the lead.

 

We need guys in our bullpen who have been in pressure situations, and can throw strikes in close games on the road. The likes of Boone "Called up from Single A" Logan, Thornton, and Dotel are not the answer

 

That Dotel guy has never been in a pressure situation.

 

Cook me a Sloppy Joe.

[joejoesox]

That Dotel guy has never been in a pressure situation.

 

Cook me a Sloppy Joe.

 

Yeah the Royals were in contending, meaningful games. I forgot.

[caulfield12]

It does get old, but so does blowing a multi-run lead against the Twins. You don't hear much verbal ass pats aside from the generic spiels when we're playing KC, but who has been nipping at our heels all season/taking vital games from us in heartbreaking manner: Royals or Twins?

 

 

Well, the Twins will have 5 division championships in the last seven years if they can overtake us...with a very modest payroll compared to what the White Sox and Tigers are putting out there on the field. You have to admire that, that they could survive and even prosper losing David Ortiz, Santana, Radke, Guardado, Hawkins, Koskie, Guzman, Rivas, Mientkiewicz, AJ, Hunter, and turn around and become competitive again in such a short period of time.

 

Have they won anything? Heck, no. But you have to say in many ways they are the second most successful team after the Braves in recent years (I'm not going to compare them to the Yankees or Red Sox, who operate on a different set of expectations and financial considerations). Have they stuck their necks out there and made a big acquisition to put themselves over the top? No, unless you consider the likes of Tony Batista, Bret Boone, Rondell White, Ruben Sierra, Rick Reed, etc., from the scrap heap to be big impact moves.

 

I think the only flaw of Ryan and Smith was their fear to deal any of their minor leaguers, which has also plagued the Angels until recently.

 

I don't know what KW is doing, I think he realized in 2006 that you can make too many moves and change the fundamental nature of the club too much, even though all the moves at the time seemed to be improvements, at least on paper. Time will tell with this Griffey move....how it impacts our CF defense, Wise/Anderson, and, most importantly, Konerko, who we still have to pay quite a bit of money to in 09 and 10.

[joejoesox]

if griffey is butchering plays in CF, costing us games out there ala Mackowiak, you'd have to think that Ozzie would stop putting him out there. even though our defense has been pretty bad lately, ozzie seems to put the best players defensively on the field at each position if he can help it (Uribe is probably better at 2B than Alexei, but you obviously need Lexi's bat in the lineup)

[caulfield12]

That Dotel guy has never been in a pressure situation.

 

Cook me a Sloppy Joe.

 

Dotel was a closer with the Astros and A's, and, when healthy after surgery, the Royals.

 

Look at Howry, Foulke, Takatsu, Hermanson and Jenks. At least three of those guys were converted from starting pitchers earlier in their careers.

 

I don't think there's any magic recipe...you either have it or you don't. I do think Thornton might have electric stuff...but, for whatever reason, he just doesn't have the mental strength (like Jenks) to gut it out when the chips are down and we need that big out to end an inning.

 

MacDougal was also a former closer...and, Aardsma and Sisco also failed for a myriad of reasons, but Mike M. had a fairly decent set of lifetime closing stats before coming here. Once again, as mentioned, doing it in Chicago in the heat of a pennant race is different that performing in Pittsburgh or KC.

 

I think the Brewers are realizing how tough getting over that hump is....a week ago, everyone was favoring them to run down the Cubs. Now they're five games out and the jury is out whether they will recover.

 

[BobDylan]

Yeah the Royals were in contending, meaningful games. I forgot.

 

Out of all the years he's pitched, and the 83 career saves he has, you bring up the 23.0 IP he threw in KC?

[The Gooch]

Because the point of the thread was the never ending ass sucking Hawk does on the air for the Twins. It. Gets. Old. Complimenting is one thing. Sucking ass for 9 straight innings of a 4 game set is another.

 

I tried to sync Farmer and Stone with the tv after hearing about how big Joe Mauer is for the 800th time this series. Unfortunately the radio was ahead of the tv, so I switched it back to hear about how big Joe Mauer is for the 801st time a half inning later. If they have nothing else to talk about Hawk needs to go back to his Ted Williams stories he used to tell about twice a game. It beats comparing the size of Joe Mauer to everyone else in a White Sox uniform. One thing Hawk was right about tonight was that the new Twins stadium can't be built quick enough. The dome has got to go. I dread watching every time the Sox play in Minnesota.

[joejoesox]

Out of all the years he's pitched, and the 83 career saves he has, you bring up the 23.0 IP he threw in KC?

 

i refuse to put any more relavance in his closing stats with the astros and A's, than I would with them for the Royals, none of those teams contended

 

i mention the royals as that was the last team he was a closer for

[caulfield12]

if griffey is butchering plays in CF, costing us games out there ala Mackowiak, you'd have to think that Ozzie would stop putting him out there. even though our defense has been pretty bad lately, ozzie seems to put the best players defensively on the field at each position if he can help it (Uribe is probably better at 2B than Alexei, but you obviously need Lexi's bat in the lineup)

 

 

I'm not sure if I agree with that assessment....maybe the sloppy Ramirez of the last couple of weeks is a downgrade from Uribe, but it's not even close when you add the offensive impact, and the mental impact/psychological lift he has on the team when he's raking the ball.

 

You could even argue that Uribe might be better at 3B than Crede...19 errors, despite the many great plays, just doesn't cut it. And Joe's bat has been missing in action since the first two months of the season. Somehow, he'll end up with between 20-25 homers and 70-85 RBI's, but Joe Crede has always been something of an enigma. You want to argue that Crede is great, but he's simply very good...with occasional flashes of greatness, but not quite a consistent All-Star or Gold Glover. As with Magglio, I don't think you can take the risk to sign him to a huge contract...despite the obvious flaws with Fields' defense and his very big/long/loose batting stroke.

 

We already have lingering concerns w/ Konerko and Contreras for 09/10, I don't think we can afford to add Crede to that list. And you might have to add Linebrink to the list as well...he has been overused and pushed to the limit the last five years, it's no wonder he is starting to break down.

 

 

[caulfield12]

i refuse to put any more relavance in his closing stats with the astros and A's, than I would with them for the Royals, none of those teams contended

 

i mention the royals as that was the last team he was a closer for

 

 

Both the Astro's and A's from 2004 won over 90 games...so I think that it the definition of contention. The 2000 Astros, the other main instance when he was a closer, they had the same record as last year's White Sox team, so I will give you that one. At worst, he would have been considered an "average" closer at the MLB level though.

 

Also, he has 844 strikeouts in 688 career innings pitched, so he obviously has the "stuff," at least before the surgery, to get the job done. But it's what's between the ears that is the most important for every player.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I was not doing what Hawk was doing. I predicted they'd lose the lead even before the inning began because I had a sinking feeling something would go wrong. Is it coincidence everything happened as I said? Yes, and it goes more towards the belief I have that the players think more closely to us than we imagine. Like they're waiting for something to go wrong. We've al been conditioned to feel this way, and this is what I want changed.

 

I'm not suggesting Twins lack talent. As I wrote in the initial post, it's intangible ideas we're talking about. Pitchers still have to pitch and hitters have to hit. I just feel, even if it does absolutely nothing on the field, this organizational love for the Twins and this feeling no lead is safe can't be beneficial for us. Especially with one series remaining. Is there nothing to be said about subconsciously acting in a certain way? Isn't that what home field advantage is all about, anyways? We don't need home field fans, in addition to everything else I've mentioned about the Twins, adding ontop of one another.

 

Its a subject worthy of a thesis or article in Psychology Today. Home field advantage , mob mentality what ever you want to call it , its just as disgusting to me seeing every other poster using almost the exact same words along the lines of " no nuts, mental midget, goodbye playoffs " etc. etc. as it is hearing Hawk slobbering all over the Twins. If it "can't be beneficial to us" why do we do it ? Why did you do it ? If you want it to stop try being positive instead of negative. Being negative is so much easier to do and it starts the mob mentality ball rolling. I know we love our team but seriously why take it so seriously that we feel this overwhelming need to predict dire consequences for the game , the series or the rest of the season. As fans all we can do is hope for the best. Nothing we do besides cheer at games can help the club. Thats the home field advantage.

 

You're saying all this love for the Twins can't be beneficial and you want it to stop while I'm saying frustrated over the top negativity leads to the same things. The intangibles that you speak of works both ways. Just as the power of positive thinking ( and negative thinking towards the opponent) give any team an advantage. Negative thinking towards your own team , though understandable, is counterproductive. I know we can't help it sometimes because rooting for our team is a passion. Any cop will tell you that crimes of passion involve little thought or perspective.

 

I guess I'm just trying to tie in the love for another organization with the hate and venom we constantly see against our own team in game threads. Neither is beneficial . Hope you see my point. That's why I said you were doing the same thing as Hawk. He was basically expecting the worst to happen and so were you.

Edited August 1, 2008 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[SoxFan1]

Hawk was unbearable tonight. Carlos Gomez freaking sucks. He doesn't hit for average, doesn't get on base, his SB % is not good, he doesn't hit for power. He is essentially a worthless offensive player.

Those f***ing "game changer" rants drove me up a wall. I am one of Hawk's biggest fans, but he is just another reason I'm glad to be done with this f***ing series and team for almost 2 months.

[Jake]

Those f***ing "game changer" rants drove me up a wall. I am one of Hawk's biggest fans, but he is just another reason I'm glad to be done with this f***ing series and team for almost 2 months.

 

You know we're in some s*** when the homer Hawk has the same defeatist attitude as the team.

[LosMediasBlancas]

The players don't listen to Hawk, or the fans or anyone else. If the Twins own the Sox it's because they flat out play harder, period. Anything else is a weak excuse.

[SoxFan562004]

last ten games both the Sox and Twins are 5-5 and that includes the head to head 4 games series at Twins. This won't be an easy division to win, but that series doesn't by any means spell the end of the sox

[BobDylan]

i refuse to put any more relavance in his closing stats with the astros and A's, than I would with them for the Royals, none of those teams contended

 

i mention the royals as that was the last team he was a closer for

 

Oh, to be a high pressure reliever (or any pitcher for that matter), you have to of pitched on a contending team? That's a prerequisite I haven't heard of. Amazing how the White Sox won a World Series with a closer who'd never pitched a Major League inning in his life. And the guys behind him? Yeah, those were some real high pressure studs, at least according to your definition...

 

You have nothing to back up your "pitching scared" theory other than these said pitchers pitching behind in counts. They've been "pitching scared" for two or three weeks now. I think it's safe to say they're either slumping, which, gasp, happens... or they flat out suck. It's also possible they've got a little crisis going on because after Jenks got off the DL, Linebrink went on it. Give me any team that loses their two back-end bullpen guys back-to-back like this and I'll give you a bullpen that is going to have a rough time.

 

Relax for ten minutes. Wait to see if the slump rides out before you push everyone overboard.

[beck72]

Every series is different. This last 4 game set, the sox seemed overmatched. When the Twins were in Chi. last, the Twins looked like a high school team going up against the Sox. The Twins may go back to playing like that H.S. team. They may continue surprising people. But the sox need to take care of their own business. They win each series, they'll take the Central, no matter what the Twins do.

 

The Twins play the game the right way. Gardenhire and the organization want a certain type of player and they keep interchanging them. They are to be respected. But not feared. Ozzie and Hawk do feed into the "Oh, the Twins are awesome and we're lucky to win a game" attitude. That doesn't help the players to hear about all the slobbering those two do about the Twins.

 

But the sox can learn from the Twins model-esp. in regards to not relying on the 3 run homer to win every game. Sure, the sox will always need some big bats. But they also need guys who are fundamentally sound offensively and defensively. The sox helped themselves with the additions of Quentin and Cabrera. Swisher would have to if he hit for his career avgs. I think this offseason Kenny will continue to re-make the lineup. Starting w/ an Orlando Hudson signing.

 

 

[ChiSox_Sonix]

What is ridiculous about this series is how we allowed Justin Morneau to beat us and the failure to secure those last outs of innings. Outside of him and Mauer, this team doesnt have anyone that should scare you.

 

The Twins scored 26 runs in the series, but 14 of them came with 2 outs. They're clutch hitting was ridiculous, yet again.

 

However, of those 14 2-out RBIs, 9 came from Justin Morneau. Thats ~65%. On a team with two legit stars playing with a bunch of league average (at best) players, there was no excuse for allowing him to beat us over and over.

 

For the series, Morneau went 5-14, 2 2B, 2HR, 4R, 10RBI (9 2-out RBI)

[southsider2k5]

What is ridiculous about this series is how we allowed Justin Morneau to beat us and the failure to secure those last outs of innings. Outside of him and Mauer, this team doesnt have anyone that should scare you.

 

The Twins scored 26 runs in the series, but 14 of them came with 2 outs. They're clutch hitting was ridiculous, yet again.

 

However, of those 14 2-out RBIs, 9 came from Justin Morneau. Thats ~65%. On a team with two legit stars playing with a bunch of league average (at best) players, there was no excuse for allowing him to beat us over and over.

 

For the series, Morneau went 5-14, 2 2B, 2HR, 4R, 10RBI (9 2-out RBI)

 

Great post. Its the series in a nutshell.

[joejoesox]

our bullpen is terrible on the road, especially in the hump, they have no confidence after they hop on the plane

 

 

[BigSqwert]

Great post. Its the series in a nutshell.

They've been doing it all year and for some reason people keep saying that they can't keep it up.