You're Kenny Williams

[knightni]

I re-edited it.

 

Approximately 32 to 35 more games.

[Big Hurtin]

I re-edited it.

 

Approximately 32 to 35 more games.

 

Thanks. So it's pretty much a done deal at this point, provided he doesn't get injured.

[scenario]

I'm thinking we win the World Series this year and then Griffey chooses to retire... going out on top.

 

Problem solved.

[Bubba Philips]

I'm thinking we win the World Series this year and then Griffey chooses to retire... going out on top.

 

Problem solved.

Thome hits lefties better and Griffey hits right handers better.. About 4 out 5 pitchers we'll face are right handers so Thome doesn't quite make enough plate appearances.. By platooning Thome against lefties and Junior against riighties. We choose whoever we choose from whomever has the best las 2 months.. If Griffey could play a decent first base or maybe if Dye could play first that would open up a lot of possibilities. Neither Swisher nor Konerko have shown they are golden glove fielders at first.. Swisher has the distinction of not being a suitable fielder at 2 positions. Edited August 3, 2008 by forrestg

[witesoxfan]

Thome hits lefties better and Griffey hits right handers better.. About 4 out 5 pitchers we'll face are right handers so Thome doesn't quite make enough plate appearances.. By platooning Thome against lefties and Junior against riighties. We choose whoever we choose from whomever has the best las 2 months.. If Griffey could play a decent first base or maybe if Dye could play first that would open up a lot of possibilities. Neither Swisher nor Konerko have shown they are golden glove fielders at first.. Swisher has the distinction of not being a suitable fielder at 2 positions.

 

Thome's hit lefties better one time in his entire career. The reason anybody would ever question whether Thome is a hall of famer or not is simply because he's is a super-glorified platoon player; his career OPS against lefties is like .750 whereas it's 1.050 against righties.

 

No, a Thome-Griffey platoon would never, ever work.

[WCSox]

"Injury-prone" - Has played in less than 130 games once (59 in 2005) since 1994. Yep. "Injury-prone".

Also there's the fact that he's posted OPS+ of 155, 150, and 132 with us. And that he was our best offensive player last year, and second-best in 2006.

 

But hey, everyone's entitled to their opinion.

 

Mine's more like fact than opinion. Unless you've been living under a rock for the past four seasons, you'll note that Thome missed most of '05 with an injury and was either out or limited with injuries for a decent chunk of last season. Thome may have ONLY missed about 15-20 games last season, but he was clearly playing hurt for a couple of weeks and not producing because of it. You'll also note that Ozzie won't even play Thome at 1B during interleague play because he's afraid he'll get hurt. If that isn't "injury-prone," I don't know what is.

 

Who do you suggest we DH next year?

 

Like I said before, Thome will most likely garner enough plate appearances over the next two months to trigger the guarantee clause in his option for next year. And since JT has a limited no-trade clause, we're pretty much stuck with him for another year and don't have a choice.

Edited August 3, 2008 by WCSox

[witesoxfan]

Mine's more like fact than opinion. Unless you've been living under a rock for the past four seasons, you'll note that Thome missed most of '05 with an injury and was either out or limited with injuries for a decent chunk of last season. Thome may have ONLY missed about 15-20 games last season, but he was clearly playing hurt for a couple of weeks and not producing because of it. You'll also note that Ozzie won't even play Thome at 1B during interleague play because he's afraid he'll get hurt. If that isn't "injury-prone," I don't know what is.

 

 

 

Like I said before, Thome will most likely garner enough plate appearances over the next two months to trigger the guarantee clause in his option for next year. And since JT has a limited no-trade clause, we're pretty much stuck with him for another year and don't have a choice.

 

I would use a different word than "stuck"...we're "lucky enough to get the money from Philly and have Thome's option vest so that he'll be back in a Sox uniform next year" and don't have a choice.

[WCSox]

I would use a different word than "stuck"...we're "lucky enough to get the money from Philly and have Thome's option vest so that he'll be back in a Sox uniform next year" and don't have a choice.

 

Given his injury history and the fact that his BA and OPS have fallen steadily over the past three years, I'm wondering when our luck is going to run out. That said, we're certainly "lucky" to have him as an alternative to the lack of young talent on this team. Even if he's limited to DH, JT can still swing the stick when he's not fighting a ribcage or calf strain.

 

[Dick Allen]

I've searched everywhere for something that says Philadelphia would pick up part of the vested option. The only thing I have seen so far is Thome had $46 million left on his contract when the Sox acquired him and Philadelphia was sending $22 million to the Sox. I think the Sox will be on the hook for the full option if it vests, which it should if he doesn't get hurt.

[justBLAZE]

I've searched everywhere for something that says Philadelphia would pick up part of the vested option. The only thing I have seen so far is Thome had $46 million left on his contract when the Sox acquired him and Philadelphia was sending $22 million to the Sox. I think the Sox will be on the hook for the full option if it vests, which it should if he doesn't get hurt.

 

Maybe the whole ordeal about bringing in Junior is to limit Thome's PA? For example Junior is the DH instead of Thome for today's game.

[WCSox]

Maybe the whole ordeal about bringing in Junior is to limit Thome's PA? For example Junior is the DH instead of Thome for today's game.

 

In the past, I wouldn't have put that past the Sox's front office. But I think that Jerry and friends have learned that those bottom-line tactics don't work in professional sports the same way that they do in other businesses. Plus, the Sox are in a heated divisional race and I'm pretty confident that Ozzie and KW are more interested in winning than weaseling out of JT's option.

 

[witesoxfan]

I've searched everywhere for something that says Philadelphia would pick up part of the vested option. The only thing I have seen so far is Thome had $46 million left on his contract when the Sox acquired him and Philadelphia was sending $22 million to the Sox. I think the Sox will be on the hook for the full option if it vests, which it should if he doesn't get hurt.

 

I've read where people have heard Bruce Levine mention it and I've also seen it here too. It's a supposed handshake agreement; also, whether the money came in at $5.5 a year or $22 mill all at once, the Sox could very easily allocate that to where the Sox would be able to use it at $5.5 mill a year for Thome.

 

That makes enough sense to me.

[harfman77]

The 2010 lineup will be something like:

 

C Pierzynski

1B Swisher

2B Ramirez/Beckham

SS Beckham/Ramirez

3B Fields

RF Dye

CF Anderson/Wise/?

LF Quentin

DH Konerko

 

SP Danks RP Logan

SP Floyd RP Wasserman

SP Buerhle RP Linebrink

SP Poreda RP Thornton

SP Broadway RP Wasserman/?

CP Jenks RP ?

 

And 2009 is likely to be

 

C Pierzynski

1B Konerko/Swisher

2B Ramirez/Getz

SS ?/Ramirez

3B Fields

RF Dye

CF Swisher/?

LF Quentin

DH Thome/Konerko

 

SP Buerhle RP Logan

SP Floyd RP Wasserman

SP Danks RP Linebrink

SP Vazquez RP Thornton

SP Broadway/Contreras RP Wasserman/Broadway

CP Jenks RP Dotel

 

So the main needs in the offseason are a MI filler until Beckham is ready and a long term CF. Resigning Griffey does not accomplish either of these tasks. I could see making a deal with the Angels if Teixera walks trading PK for Sarge Jr. and a spect in a move that helps both teams fill holes with players that might need a fresh start. I think that either Vazquez or Contreras will be traded in the offseason, most likely Conteras but it might be hard to find a taker.

[almagest]

Mine's more like fact than opinion. Unless you've been living under a rock for the past four seasons, you'll note that Thome missed most of '05 with an injury and was either out or limited with injuries for a decent chunk of last season. Thome may have ONLY missed about 15-20 games last season, but he was clearly playing hurt for a couple of weeks and not producing because of it. You'll also note that Ozzie won't even play Thome at 1B during interleague play because he's afraid he'll get hurt. If that isn't "injury-prone," I don't know what is.

 

 

 

Like I said before, Thome will most likely garner enough plate appearances over the next two months to trigger the guarantee clause in his option for next year. And since JT has a limited no-trade clause, we're pretty much stuck with him for another year and don't have a choice.

You keep asserting he's injury-prone, and that the "evidence" supports it, yet you don't back it up in any way. Like I said, he's played in less than 130 games once in his long career. That counts as pretty damn consistent, unless you're measuring him by some impossible, Cal Ripken standard.

 

Also, in Thome's "injury-plagued" '07 season, he still played in 130 games, and had an OPS of 150. No one else on the team was even close to that. Not sure what more you want from your DH, or why you don't want his option to vest.

 

Hypothetically, let's say his option *doesn't* vest, though -- he gets injured, or is traded, or something. Who is a better option at DH?

[WCSox]

You keep asserting he's injury-prone, and that the "evidence" supports it, yet you don't back it up in any way...

 

Since you apparently know everything, why don't you explain to the class why Ozzie has Griffey playing CF most days, with Swisher at 1B when Swish is CLEARLY the better defensive option in CF? Why not just move Thome back to 1B and Griffey (or Dye) to DH? Why in the heck would Kenny even trade for Griffey in the first place when he could've taken Paulie out of the lineup by simply moving Thome to 1B? Why has Thome not played 1B all year (especially in interleague play, with Paulie slumping), and a combined four times over the previous two seasons?

 

I'll give you a hint: It has something to do with Thome being injury-prone.

 

Also, in Thome's "injury-plagued" '07 season, he still played in 130 games,

 

That's nice, but it doesn't take into account Thome's lack of production early in the season while he was trying to play through a rib cage injury.

 

Not sure what more you want from your DH, or why you don't want his option to vest.

 

Hypothetically, let's say his option *doesn't* vest, though -- he gets injured, or is traded, or something. Who is a better option at DH?

 

Dye, whose defensive skills have eroded over the past couple of years. Quentin would be better off in RF, with Swish moving to LF and Anderson moving to CF.

 

I said that Thome is "injury-prone", not "unproductive while healthy." Yeah, he can still hit, but he has so many problems with nagging injuries that he can't do anything other than DH. The Sox already have an assload of slow sluggers who are limited to DH, 1B, and maybe RF. Thome also has a limited NTC that makes him very difficult to trade if the Sox are out of contention next July. With Dye and Paulie being younger and better options for the future (not to mention capable of putting on a glove), Thome would be the odd man out.

 

Edited August 4, 2008 by WCSox

[Balta1701]

So the main needs in the offseason are a MI filler until Beckham is ready and a long term CF. Resigning Griffey does not accomplish either of these tasks. I could see making a deal with the Angels if Teixera walks trading PK for Sarge Jr. and a spect in a move that helps both teams fill holes with players that might need a fresh start. I think that either Vazquez or Contreras will be traded in the offseason, most likely Conteras but it might be hard to find a taker.

No matter what else we can say...I think we can say with some level of certainty that any attempt to predict the lineup KW will put together next season is going to be foolhardy. Every year, he totally surprises us several times. Going in to 05, Pierzynski, Iguchi, Lee for Podsednik were big changes. 06, Rowand for Thome, BMac to the pen for Vazquez. 07, I think a lot of us saw the Erstad mess coming, but blah. Danks/Masset for BMac. Freddy Garcia for Gavin Floyd. Another near complete overhaul in 08. Alexei Ramirez, God added to LF, Nick Swisher appears in CF, Garland for O.C.

 

With KW, it's safe to say there'll be a pretty major, nearly unexpected move. Maybe more than one.

[DaTank]

Since you apparently know everything, why don't you explain to the class why Ozzie has Griffey playing CF most days, with Swisher at 1B when Swish is CLEARLY the better defensive option in CF? Why not just move Thome back to 1B and Griffey (or Dye) to DH? Why in the heck would Kenny even trade for Griffey in the first place when he could've taken Paulie out of the lineup by simply moving Thome to 1B? Why has Thome not played 1B all year (especially in interleague play, with Paulie slumping), and a combined four times over the previous two seasons?

 

Swisher is "CLEARLY" a better defensive option in CF? This is news to me. How many gold gloves does Griffey have? 10? What about Swisher? None. No, Griffey is not the Seattle Griffey we all know and remember, but he is still better than Swish. Swisher has better range at this point in Griffey's career but Griffey can still be a far superior in CF. Do you think Swisher's puss arm even compares to Griffey's? Did you see the catch Griff made in CF the other day (Saturday, I think)? I really don't see why you'd want to move Dye to DH or Thome to 1B either. Dye is 34 compared to Thome who is 37( Thome turns 38 on August 27th). You obviously wouldn't want a guy as old as Thome out there trying to put up solid D. He can't move like he used to. Dye on the hand, has a great arm in RF, and has shown us that he can play Gold Glove caliber defense( He actually has 1 Gold Glove). Please explain your reasoning.

Edited August 4, 2008 by jenks45monster

[WCSox]

Swisher is "CLEARLY" a better defensive option in CF? This is news to me. How many gold gloves does Griffey have? 10?

 

LOL, talk about living in the past.

 

Swisher has better range at this point in Griffey's career but Griffey can still be a far superior in CF. Do you think Swisher's puss arm even compares to Griffey's?

 

Range is a lot more important than arm strength in CF. And Swish does not have a "puss arm." If he did, he wouldn't be subbing in RF late in games. Johnny Damon (who truly has a "puss arm") was playing CF regularly up until a couple of years ago.

 

You obviously wouldn't want a guy as old as Thome out there trying to put up solid D. He can't move like he used to.

 

But apparently it's OK for a guy even older than Thome to play CF. Thome isn't that much slower than he was three years ago in Philly. And it's not like immobile first basemen are rare in MLB.

 

Paulie is a mediocre defensive 1B. And he apparently can't hit like he used to, but that didn't stop Ozzie from starting him at 1B against RHP in interleague play. On the basis of hitting alone, Thome should've started those games.

 

Dye on the hand, has a great arm in RF, and has shown us that he can play Gold Glove caliber defense( He actually has 1 Gold Glove).

 

Again, please stop living in the past. Dye has a nice arm, but he has less range than Quentin, who also has a pretty nice arm.

Edited August 4, 2008 by WCSox

[DaTank]

- Swisher's arm is terrible.

 

- Griffey is more of an 'athletic' type than Thome. It makes him more capable to play the field.

 

- I am not living in the past with Dye. His has been spectacular playing defense this year.

[WCSox]

- Swisher's arm is terrible.

 

Wrong. Johnny Damon's arm was terrible, and he played CF regularly up until two years ago. Because range matters more that arm strength in CF.

 

- Griffey is more of an 'athletic' type than Thome. It makes him more capable to play the field.

 

Please explain how Mark McGwire was an acceptable first baseman towards the end of his career, but Thome supposedly isn't?

 

You need to be more than "athletic" to play CF. You need speed. Griffey doesn't have it anymore.

 

- I am not living in the past with Dye. His has been spectacular playing defense this year.

 

He's been OK, but his range is clearly diminishing. Quentin is the better long-term option.

Edited August 4, 2008 by WCSox

[almagest]

Since you apparently know everything, why don't you explain to the class why Ozzie has Griffey playing CF most days, with Swisher at 1B when Swish is CLEARLY the better defensive option in CF? Why not just move Thome back to 1B and Griffey (or Dye) to DH? Why in the heck would Kenny even trade for Griffey in the first place when he could've taken Paulie out of the lineup by simply moving Thome to 1B? Why has Thome not played 1B all year (especially in interleague play, with Paulie slumping), and a combined four times over the previous two seasons?

Because Thome is the third-best first baseman on the team? Because he's in his late 30's and was never the athlete Jr. is? Because he's most valuable at DH, and the Sox are protecting an asset the best way they can? There's plenty of reasons. Griffey was also brought in to replace a struggling Konerko. The only spot for him is either DH, or in the outfield. Who knows if he only approved the trade because of a guarantee that he'd be playing the outfield? Dye and Quentin don't play first, and Swisher plays a decent first, so it's pretty obvious why Griffey ended up in CF.

 

That's nice, but it doesn't take into account Thome's lack of production early in the season while he was trying to play through a rib cage injury.

Players slump. Players get hurt. This is nothing new. You seem to only be focusing on his early season struggles, though. What about his hitting since June?

 

Dye, whose defensive skills have eroded over the past couple of years. Quentin would be better off in RF, with Swish moving to LF and Anderson moving to CF.

 

Sliding Dye to DH, letting Thome go, and playing Anderson in CF is a serious offensive dropoff in the outfield, and a dropoff at DH. It very well could outweigh any defensive gain from Anderson in CF.

 

I said that Thome is "injury-prone", not "unproductive while healthy." Yeah, he can still hit, but he has so many problems with nagging injuries that he can't do anything other than DH. The Sox already have an assload of slow sluggers who are limited to DH, 1B, and maybe RF. Thome also has a limited NTC that makes him very difficult to trade if the Sox are out of contention next July. With Dye and Paulie being younger and better options for the future (not to mention capable of putting on a glove), Thome would be the odd man out.

So what if he's only a DH? Since when do players posting numbers like his need "versatility?" If he's only "unproductive while unhealthy", then the fact that he's posted great numbers every year of his career except 2005 must mean he's been healthy the majority of his career.

 

The fact is, he's a fantastic option at DH that tons of teams would love to have, and if the information on his contract option is correct, will be very reasonable next year. There's no reason to not want him back.

[WCSox]

Because Thome is the third-best first baseman on the team?

 

Explain why Ozzie took the bat out of Thome's hand and played a slumping/injured Konerko at 1B during interleague play. Even considering that Thome is a defensive downgrade from Paulie, he should've been hitting in those situations. And Thome is the better option against RHP, which is what the majority of what they played against. But he didn't because Ozzie is afraid to put a fragile Jim Thome at 1B.

 

Sliding Dye to DH, letting Thome go, and playing Anderson in CF is a serious offensive dropoff in the outfield, and a dropoff at DH.

 

And on the other hand, it's a serious defensive pickup. Griffey is slow as hell in CF and Swish is more of a corner OF. Our defense is f'n awful this year and it's costing us. Just look at the past week.

 

BTW, Dye at DH is not a drop-off from Thome. I'll take JD's younger bat from here on out over JT's.

 

So what if he's only a DH? Since when do players posting numbers like his need "versatility?"

 

Because both Paulie and Dye are on the decline defensively and will be soon relegated to 1B/DH as well. The Sox need to get off of this add-another-aging-slugger-in-his-mid/late-30s kick. They can't keep over-paying for aging veterans who are locked into a few select positions and drag down their defense. So why not shed some of that payroll and use it to pick up another player or two that actually addresses this team's needs? By my count, we're going to need a 3B next season (Fields doesn't look like he's ready) and at least one more middle infielder.

 

If he's only "unproductive while unhealthy", then the fact that he's posted great numbers every year of his career except 2005 must mean he's been healthy the majority of his career.

 

Past health doesn't mean a whole lot when a player enters his late 30's. Especially when physical fragility has already forced him to a DH-only role.

 

The fact is, he's a fantastic option at DH that tons of teams would love to have, and if the information on his contract option is correct, will be very reasonable next year. There's no reason to not want him back.

 

I agree that Thome is a very productive hitter that a lot of teams would love to have. Unfortunately, the Sox have a number of similar players who are younger (and therefore, better future prospects) and are restricted to similar positions. The problem isn't Thome's lack of productivity, it's that he's just not a good fit anymore. The Sox can't continue on this path. They need to shed payroll, bring in a couple of younger veterans to play 3B and SS/2B, and let guys like Anderson and Alexei develop. Given that Thome most likely has fewer productive years left than Paulie and Dye (I'm assuming that Griffey is released this winter) and can no longer play anywhere in the field, he's the odd man out.

Edited August 4, 2008 by WCSox

[Wanne]

I'm really surprised I'm not seeing more Chone Figgins love in this thread. He is a FA...correct? Figgin's would make so much sense it's not even funny...CF and 3B and leading off to boot. I'm really expecting Paulie to be gone this off season too. AZ or LAA.....

[Kalapse]

I'm really surprised I'm not seeing more Chone Figgins love in this thread. He is a FA...correct? Figgin's would make so much sense it's not even funny...CF and 3B and leading off to boot. I'm really expecting Paulie to be gone this off season too. AZ or LAA.....

His 3 year deal is up at season's end but he still has a year of arbitration left after this year, similar to the deal Teixeira signed with Texas. With a Service number of 4.145 coming into this season, he won't be eligible for free agency until November of '09.

[DaTank]

Wrong. Johnny Damon's arm was terrible, and he played CF regularly up until two years ago. Because range matters more that arm strength in CF.

 

My point is not that range is more important than a good arm. Are you agreeing and saying that Swisher's arm stinks?

 

 

 

Please explain how Mark McGwire was an acceptable first baseman towards the end of his career, but Thome supposedly isn't?

 

Mark McGwire played 1st his entire career. Thome hasn't played 1st on a regular basis since '05.

Edited August 4, 2008 by jenks45monster