Russia v Georgia

[mr_genius]

What I'm saying is I don't see them doing anything like that. If they did, they may as well just come out and declare war on the United States.

 

Why would that be the case? We invaded Iraq to get a democratic government. Russia is using the same justifications for their invasion. The Georgian government was evil and needed to be toppled according to the Russians. This just goes to show the horrible precedent the Iraq war has set.

 

I'm not blaming Bush for this (the invasion is %100 on the Russians), but I knew eventually some country was going to invade something and use the same reasons we did. Even if there isn't an Iraq war the invasion of Georgia still happens, but we might be able to react stronger if not for Iraq. I don't see what is going to stop Russia from taking back their old soviet republics. The UN sure isn't going to send in their 'keystone cops' peace keepers to get destroyed.

Edited August 12, 2008 by mr_genius

[KipWellsFan]

Re-igniting the Cold War would require an appalling lack of wisdom on both ends.

 

Perhaps they lack wisdom but there is definitely a rationale in the Russian regime reigniting the Cold War type atmosphere. That period of time when Russians were powerful, and scary is a source of pride for many Russians. Lets remember that Stalin is probably more popular than Gorbachev in Russia still today. Hence appearing powerful and frightening solidifies the regime's grip on power.

 

The U.S., Canada and the NATO allies seem totally pooched by the way.

Edited August 12, 2008 by KipWellsFan

[mr_genius]

Perhaps they lack wisdom but there is definitely a rationale in the Russian regime reigniting the Cold War type atmosphere. That period of time when Russians were powerful, and scary is a source of pride for many Russians. Lets remember that Stalin is probably more popular than Gorbachev in Russia still today. Hence appearing powerful and frightening solidifies the regimes grip on power.

 

The U.S., Canada and the NATO allies seem totally pooched by the way.

 

I definitely agree with you here. If Russia takes back some of their former republics they will once again be seen as a scary superpower whom can impose it's will whenever it sees fit. They will basically be back on the world stage as a world governing force.

[lostfan]

Perhaps they lack wisdom but there is definitely a rationale in the Russian regime reigniting the Cold War type atmosphere. That period of time when Russians were powerful, and scary is a source of pride for many Russians. Lets remember that Stalin is probably more popular than Gorbachev in Russia still today. Hence appearing powerful and frightening solidifies the regime's grip on power.

 

The U.S., Canada and the NATO allies seem totally pooched by the way.

I think Putin said something like "anybody that doesn't miss the old Soviet Union has no heart, but anybody who wants it back has no brain."

[HuskyCaucasian]

Russian convoy heads into Georgia, violating truce

A Russian military convoy thrust deep into Georgia on Wednesday and Georgian officials said Russian troops bombed and looted the crossroads city of Gori, violating a freshly brokered truce intended to end the conflict.

 

In the west, Georgia's weakened military acknowledged its soldiers had pulled out entirely from Abkhazia, leaving both breakaway regions at the heart of the fighting in the hands of Russian-backed separatists.

 

Even as the Russian troops moved deep into Georgian territory from the separatist region of South Ossetia, a few dozen fighters from Abkhazia offered their own brazen challenge, planting their flag on a bridge over the Inguri River _ outside the rebel territory.

 

This is no longer a "liberation" of the rebel regions (like it ever really was), it's an out right invasion to restore the USSR.

[DBAHO]

Russian convoy heads into Georgia, violating truce

 

 

This is no longer a "liberation" of the rebel regions (like it ever really was), it's an out right invasion to restore the USSR.

That might be just a tad over the top.

 

Not that I'm agreeing with what the Russians did here, but you can't say they want the Soviet Union back, based on 1 invasion (which has a lot of similarities to the situation in Kosovo for example).

[KipWellsFan]

Russian convoy heads into Georgia, violating truce

 

 

This is no longer a "liberation" of the rebel regions (like it ever really was), it's an out right invasion to restore the USSR.

 

With reports of Russia pulling back that seems a little over the top. Russia pretty much said if Kosovo independence is on the table, then so will South Ossetia and Abkhazia's. And Russia has pretty much made sure of that now.

Edited August 13, 2008 by KipWellsFan

[lostfan]

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_y...08091149AA3VGTk

 

...

[mr_genius]

Uh CNN is reporting that Russia is claiming massive portions of the country and not giving it back. You can go with the 'yahoo answers' reporting, I'll go with CNN.

Edited August 14, 2008 by mr_genius

[lostfan]

Uh CNN is reporting that Russia is claiming massive portions of the country and not giving it back. You can go with the 'yahoo answers' reporting, I'll go with CNN.

That link

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

your head

[mr_genius]

That link

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

your head

 

Well i certainly wouldn't put it past anyone citing 'yahoo answers' to be proof of something. Dailykos and huffington post are quoted often.

[lostfan]

Well i certainly wouldn't put it past anyone citing 'yahoo answers' to be proof of something. Dailykos and huffington post are quoted often.

I was worried about you for a second.

 

I should call my buddies in Atlanta and see if they're ok, apparently the Russians have us beat in the invisible flying tank race.

[mr_genius]

I was worried about you for a second.

 

I should call my buddies in Atlanta and see if they're ok, apparently the Russians have us beat in the invisible flying tank race.

 

do you know what is crazy? invisible tanks might not be that far off...

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/08/11...k.ap/index.html

 

 

 

[lostfan]

Yeah I saw that. How soon until I can hide in the women's locker room at my gym?

[mr_genius]

Yeah I saw that. How soon until I can hide in the women's locker room at my gym?

 

haha. i'm not sure if mankind is ready to handle the vast powers of an invisibility suit.

[kapkomet]

Hmmm... so what did Poland do today?

 

 

[mr_genius]

Hmmm... so what did Poland do today?

 

basically told Russia to f*** off

 

[Wise Master Buehrle]

It's funny that there is a 5-page thread about this here yet no one has mentioned the genocide that Georgia had committed on South Ossetia.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLoBckWl-dg

 

Top Russian investigators have opened a criminal case on charges of genocide in connection with recent events in South Ossetia, a General Prosecutor's Office spokesman said on Thursday.

 

The Investigation Committee at the General Prosecutor's Office "initiated a genocide probe based on reports of actions committed by Georgian troops aimed at murdering Russian citizens - ethnic Ossetians - living in South Ossetia," said Igor Komissarov, deputy chairman of the Investigation Committee.

 

Russia has accused Georgia of committing "genocide" by launching an offensive last Friday to regain control of the separatist province of South Ossetia. Russia is calling for an international war crimes trial for the Georgian leadership, which Moscow says is responsible for massive loss of life in South Ossetia.

 

President Dmitry Medvedev ordered prosecutors on August 10 to gather evidence to support Russian allegations of the Georgian genocide of South Ossetians. The vast majority of South Ossetians hold Russian passports.

 

The propaganda that comes from our country makes me sick. Why are they making the Russians out to be the bad guys here??? The Russians are the GOOD guys! The Georgians are the bad guys! The South Ossetian population consists of mostly Russian folks.... so it's no wonder the Russians would jump to their aid!

 

This whole story is a joke. It's twisted, convoluted, and distorted into a completely different reality. Go Russia! Punish the coward Georgian government for their crimes against humanity!!!

[Wise Master Buehrle]

Moscow finds the actions of the Georgian government in South Ossetia genocidal, and it offered aid to the region. Tbilisi asserts that all it is doing is restoring “constitutional order”. After the invasion of South Ossetia by Georgian troops on 8 August, the scope of the human suffering was immense. The Georgians shelled the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali with artillery, mortars, tank guns, and Grad multiple-rocket-launchers. Georgian snipers deliberately targeted innocent civilians. The greater part of the city has been devastated, and the South Ossetian government reports that some 2,000 civilians have been killed by the Georgians. 12 Russian soldiers of the peacekeeping force were killed, and 150 were wounded. Units of the 58th Army arrived in the region to relieve the beleaguered garrison. In accordance with existing international agreements, including the ceasefire accord of 1999, Russia not only plays a role as a peacekeeper, it is obliged to come to the aid of the attacked party in the case of a breach of the ceasefire,

From the Olympiad to War

 

On Saturday, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin arrived in Vladikavkaz, the capital of North Ossetia, after cutting short his official visit to the Beijing Olympics, to discuss the problems involved in rendering aid to South Ossetia due to the Georgian invasion. Upon arrival, he gave a news conference, where he stated, “The Georgian government committed a crime against their own people when they invaded South Ossetia. The actions of Russia are firmly based in international law and legitimate. Russia shall always have enormous respect for the fraternal Georgian people, in spite of the criminal policy of the present government. I am confident, in spite of the tragedy that we see today, that this relationship shall continue in the future, notwithstanding the criminal policy of the present rulers of Georgia”.

 

Furthermore, the prime minister detailed the humanitarian aid programme that Russia is readying for South Ossetia. For the rebuilding of housing, 10 billion roubles (413 million USD. 275 million euros. 215 million UK pounds) are set aside in the federal budget. Additionally, 500 million roubles (20.645 million USD. 13.747 million euros. 10.741 million UK pounds) are budgeted for the immediate aid of Ossetian refugees in North Ossetia. Between 2 and 9 August, some 34,000 refugees from South Ossetia fled into Russia.

 

Mr Putin visited a mobile hospital of the Ministry of Emergency Situations in Alagire in North Ossetia that is treating wounded South Ossetian civilians. He visited several of the tent wards and chatted with the post-operative patients, wishing them all a speedy recovery. He also visited a refugee camp in the vicinity of the town, which had 436 Ossetian residents.

Total Genocide

 

Mr Putin heard from refugees descriptions of the atrocities committed by Georgian soldiers. In a village in Znaursky raion, the Georgians burnt several girls alive in one of the houses, according to the accounts of eyewitnesses. “They drove them in like cattle, shut them up in the house, and set it on fire. We saw a tank run over an old baba that was running together with two kids. We saw a body of one of the kids crushed into the earth”, some of the refugees told Mr Putin.

 

“It’s total genocide”, Mr Putin said. “This is nothing but madness. Civilised people do not behave like this”, he said.

 

A young woman refugee, who had lost her husband, and had a toddler, told Mr Putin that her father-in-law was still in South Ossetia, and that she did not know what had happened to him. At the same time, she emphasised that “Ossetians shall not be defeated and we shall fight until the end”.

 

The refugees assured Mr Putin, “Have no doubts, we are going to return, and we are going to rebuild our city”. They added, “The most important thing is to end the fighting”.

Minister of Emergency Situations Shoigu went to Vladikavkaz

 

The head of the Ministry of Emergency Situations, Sergei Shoigu, arrived in Vladikavkaz on Saturday to coordinate the humanitarian aid efforts for the victims of the Georgian invasion of South Ossetia. President Dmitri Medvedev had personally given him this task earlier on Saturday morning. “The task facing us is to ameliorate the consequences of this human tragedy… in this case, those officials who created these conditions must bear complete responsibility for their actions, including the violations of international law that are involved”, Mr Medvedev stated at a press conference. President Medvedev directed government agencies to take all steps necessary for rendering timely humanitarian assistance to the people of South Ossetia.

 

Up to the present moment, some 6 tons of medicine, surgical dressings, and hospital supplies have been delivered to South Ossetia, plus two groups of medical specialists were flown in to render aid on the spot. An additional 15 tons of medical supplies are ready for shipment. 1,098 refugees are patients in hospital in North Ossetia, however, this figure is fluid, and the data changes constantly. There have been responses to the call to accept refugees by regions around Russia, 200 people have been taken in by Rostov oblast and 106 people were accepted by Kabardino-Balkaria.

Exchange of Proposals

 

Russia demanded that Georgia “immediately end its invasion of South Ossetia, to cease violating all previous peace agreements and ceasefires, and respect the inherent rights and interests of all the peoples in the region”. Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili claimed that he proposed a ceasefire to President Dmitri Medvedev. “I gave a proposal to Russian President Dmitri Medvedev to stop this madness”, Mr Saakashvili said, according to the Georgian media (yes, Mr Saakashvili, YOU started the madness, are you scared because you are LOSING? Editor’s note).

 

Meanwhile, the press service of the Kremlin reported that no such proposal was directed to Mr Medvedev by the usual channels. The Ministry of Defence and the Foreign Ministry also stated that they did not receive any such proposal from the Georgian president. “It seems to us that this proposal would be completely logical if it proceeded from the Georgian president, but, there must be a strict adherence to two preliminary conditions. Firstly, all Georgian forces must withdraw from the conflict zone. Secondly, Georgia must immediately conclude a nonaggression pact with South Ossetia”, Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin said, according to a RIA-Novosti report. “Only if they did this would we be able to talk about the future”, Mr Karasin added.

Mr Medvedev Explained the situation to Mr Bush

 

The situation in South Ossetia remains the main theme of discussions of President Medvedev with foreign leaders. On Saturday, Mr Medvedev spoke with President George Bush of the USA on the telephone. He explained to Mr Bush that Russia is only using enough force to compel the Georgians to stand down and protect the lives and honour of its citizens. Mr Medvedev said that Russia is mainly guided by the considerations of ending the violence, defending the innocent civilian population (the majority of whom are Russian citizens), and coming to a quick peace settlement. The press service of the Kremlin reported that Mr Medvedev emphasised that Georgia carried out an invasion against innocent civilians and Russian peacekeeping troops.

 

“The results of the premeditated and accomplished barbarities of the Georgian leadership resulted in thousands of human victims, tens of thousands of refugees, mass destruction, and, in fact, the denial of the right to life of an entire people”, the press release read. President Medvedev stressed that the only solution acceptable to this crisis fomented by the Georgian leadership is the withdrawal of all Georgian units from the conflict zone, a return to the observance of previous agreements, and, most of all, the signing of a legally-binding non-aggression pact by Georgia.

 

Mr Medvedev expressed the hope that the USA and other countries that are interested in the establishment of peace and stability in the Caucasus shall act according to these principles. In turn, Mr Bush expressed his serious concern at the state of affairs in the region and called upon Russia to deescalate the situation. Mr Bush also stated that he hoped to contribute to the return of the situation to a diplomatic solution.

 

10 August 2008

[Balta1701]

It's funny that there is a 5-page thread about this here yet no one has mentioned the genocide that Georgia had committed on South Ossetia.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLoBckWl-dg

 

 

 

The propaganda that comes from our country makes me sick. Why are they making the Russians out to be the bad guys here??? The Russians are the GOOD guys! The Georgians are the bad guys! The South Ossetian population consists of mostly Russian folks.... so it's no wonder the Russians would jump to their aid!

 

This whole story is a joke. It's twisted, convoluted, and distorted into a completely different reality. Go Russia! Punish the coward Georgian government for their crimes against humanity!!!

Well, I will say that it's going to be very interesting having a pro-Russian voice on here if you'd like to provide more of that on this issue.

 

Here's my question in reply to your posting. I'll assert that I trust Russian media even less than I trust Fox News due to even more government interference. Why exactly should I trust the reports from the Russian side, especially when it comes to accusations of war crimes by their enemy in this conflict?

[Wise Master Buehrle]

Well, I will say that it's going to be very interesting having a pro-Russian voice on here if you'd like to provide more of that on this issue.

 

Here's my question in reply to your posting. I'll assert that I trust Russian media even less than I trust Fox News due to even more government interference. Why exactly should I trust the reports from the Russian side, especially when it comes to accusations of war crimes by their enemy in this conflict?

 

Normally I would agree with you that I also would trust Russian news sources less than our own. However, the fact that our press has omitted from us these acts by Georgia raises interesting questions about our own press and their objectives! Why must I watch Russian news and read Russian blogs to hear about this? Shouldn't genocidal acts and crimes against humanity be in our press and condemned by our press? I'm hard-pressed to disbelieve the reports that Georgia had committed genocidal acts, especially after seeing that YouTube video that I posted with an American vacationer describing what was going on in South Ossetia.

 

Bush should be condemning Georgia for their acts as well, not just Russia for their invasion. However, since Georgia has become bedfellows with the United States and attempting to get Georgia into NATO.. it raises interesting questions about our own goals.

 

Russia claims that it is building a portfolio for their accusations. I'd like to see this portfolio if it ever becomes public, because it will bring light to this issue. If there really was genocidal acts by Georgia, the Russian portfolio should clearly prove it.

[Balta1701]

Russia claims that it is building a portfolio for their accusations. I'd like to see this portfolio if it ever becomes public, because it will bring light to this issue. If there really was genocidal acts by Georgia, the Russian portfolio should clearly prove it.

Frankly, I have difficulty with including the word "Prove" in that if you're saying that Russia could prove Georgia did something, given that there's still no reason to trust the statements of the Russian government any more than there is to trust the Georgian denials. It's not all that hard in a war zone to fabricate evidence of war crimes, considering you already have the hardest part; the bodies.

[Wise Master Buehrle]

Frankly, I have difficulty with including the word "Prove" in that if you're saying that Russia could prove Georgia did something, given that there's still no reason to trust the statements of the Russian government any more than there is to trust the Georgian denials. It's not all that hard in a war zone to fabricate evidence of war crimes, considering you already have the hardest part; the bodies.

 

No problem. I just thought that I'd offer you all some opinions from the other spectrum. Personally, I don't believe much of anything that our press says, so I'm more inclined to believe the Russian press over our own. Merely a difference of opinion. The reason I'm upset about this whole thing is because Georgia launched an aggressive attack on South Ossetia and Russia immediately jumped to their aid and launched an aggressive attack on Georgia AND is currently providing a lot of aid for South Ossetia survivors! And our press just says that Russia is the bad guy, they are ruining their relations with Western countries, blah blah blah. Of course Russia would jump to the aid of South Ossetia, their population consists of mostly Russian folks.

 

 

[lostfan]

Frankly, I have difficulty with including the word "Prove" in that if you're saying that Russia could prove Georgia did something, given that there's still no reason to trust the statements of the Russian government any more than there is to trust the Georgian denials. It's not all that hard in a war zone to fabricate evidence of war crimes, considering you already have the hardest part; the bodies.

Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction

 

Saddam Hussein is a threat to America

[bmags]

all of russia's media outlets are owned by their government so I don't believe it until someone else goes in there.