Russia v Georgia

[Balta1701]

This Sunday's Washington Post will carry some really good on the ground reporting about how things started in Georgia, what the current situation is, what the Russians are doing, and why we really ought to pull back some of the tough talk, because it's getting us in trouble.

Instead of speaking softly and wielding a big stick, as Teddy Roosevelt recommended, the American policeman has been loudly lecturing the rest of the world while waving an increasingly unimpressive baton. The events of the past few days serve as a reminder that our ideological ambitions have greatly exceeded our military reach, particularly in areas such as the Caucasus, which is of only peripheral importance to the United States but of vital interest to Russia.

[Gregory Pratt]

Had some fun with this issue here, on my blog, but I'll reproduce it:

 

Moscow Ramirez or: Dreadlock Diplomacy

 

Excerpt one:

 

The United States on Sunday accused Russia of stalling its military pullback in Georgia, but the Bush administration is not rushing to repudiate Moscow for its actions.

 

The White House is struggling to figure out the best way to penalize Russia. It doesn’t want to deeply damage existing cooperation on many fronts or discourage Moscow from further integrating itself into global economic and political institutions. At the same time, U.S. officials say Russia can’t be allowed to get away with invading its neighbor.

 

Excerpt two:

 

The best-known dreadlocks in these parts got a little shorter Thursday.

 

Heeding the request of his manager, Manny Ramirez got a haircut, but as teammate Jeff Kent said with a smile, holding his thumb and forefinger about an inch apart: “Yeah, about that much.” “One inch, half-an-inch,” Ramirez said. “It’s still long. If I come back next year, it will be shorter.”

 

The slugging outfielder, a free agent after this season, said a local barber did the job. “One of my friends recommended him,” Ramirez said, adding it took “maybe five minutes, 10 minutes.”

 

After the Dodgers acquired Ramirez from the Boston Red Sox on July 31, manager Joe Torre said he asked Ramirez to “clean it up a little bit.” “I was in the principal’s office right now,” Ramirez said upon emerging from Torre’s office some three hours before the Dodgers faced the Philadelphia Phillies. “(Torre) told me he’s fine, for now.”

 

If you stop and consider these two news stories and the recent histories of Russia and Manny Ramirez, you can see the similarities. The United States has tolerated Russia’s activities since the Soviet Union collapsed but the relationship is straining under the combined pressure of needing to act but being incapable of acting due to the positives a strong Russia brings to the table while Manny Ramirez had tried the Red Sox’ patience for years until they finally traded him. Through much of his tenure in Boston the organization and its fans shrugged off all his exploits as “Manny being Manny” but could not shrug it off forever. We have been doing the same, shrugging “Russia being Russia” for years but it is a bond that is straining. The comparison goes deeper if you look further: the Red Sox put Ramirez on waivers several years ago, waivers being a process whereby anyone can claim a player but they have to take on his contract completely and unconditionally, owing him all the money due to him as a result. Our attempt to sanction the Russians and our inability to do so is a functional equivalent of this process. Next thing you know, they’ll be signing billion dollar contracts with Halliburton just like Ramirez will be signing a hundred million dollar deal with some team this offseason.

 

It’s good to be out of your mind but powerful no matter what the field, eh?

Edited August 18, 2008 by Gregory Pratt

[EvilMonkey]

I wonder if China is keeping an eye on the Russia/georgia situation. Seeing how we haven't done a thing there, maybe this will give them the courage to go take back Tiawan, sinec they think it is there anyway. The problem in dealing with countries like Russia and China, is that they don't give a flying f*** what the 'world community' thinks about what they do. They will destroy hospitals, kill civilians, shoot at the press, whatever. And the 'world comminuty' doesn't hold them accountable for those actions, other than 'condemning their actions'. Ooooohhh, that's strong.

[Wise Master Buehrle]

I wonder if China is keeping an eye on the Russia/georgia situation. Seeing how we haven't done a thing there, maybe this will give them the courage to go take back Tiawan, sinec they think it is there anyway. The problem in dealing with countries like Russia and China, is that they don't give a flying f*** what the 'world community' thinks about what they do. They will destroy hospitals, kill civilians, shoot at the press, whatever. And the 'world comminuty' doesn't hold them accountable for those actions, other than 'condemning their actions'. Ooooohhh, that's strong.

 

You know who else doesn't give a flying f*** what the world community thinks? The USA. Hey, let's let Georgia invade South Ossetia and destroy hospitals, kill civilians, shoot at the press, etc. Hey, let's go put some missile defense systems in Poland. Hey, let's go "liberate" Iraq. hey, let's force 'democracy' on sovereign nations around the world. The only place the USA isn't being held accountable for these actions is in... hmmm... the USA... lazy Americans sit by while George "I Wish I Was a Dictator" Bush runs rampant around the world with his globalist views... Ooooohhh, that's strong.

 

And everyone wonders why the rest of the world hates us.

Edited August 22, 2008 by YahtzeeSox

[EvilMonkey]

You know who else doesn't give a flying f*** what the world community thinks? The USA. Hey, let's let Georgia invade South Ossetia and destroy hospitals, kill civilians, shoot at the press, etc. Hey, let's go put some missile defense systems in Poland. Hey, let's go "liberate" Iraq. hey, let's force 'democracy' on sovereign nations around the world. The only place the USA isn't being held accountable for these actions is in... hmmm... the USA... lazy Americans sit by while George "I Wish I Was a Dictator" Bush runs rampant around the world with his globalist views... Ooooohhh, that's strong.

 

And everyone wonders why the rest of the world hates us.

 

You need a doctor, your BDS is really starting to show.

[Wise Master Buehrle]

You need a doctor, your BDS is really starting to show.

 

The same could be said about your BDS.

 

Blind Dog Syndrome

[EvilMonkey]

The same could be said about your BDS.

 

Blind Dog Syndrome

Funny. Don't quit your day job. Are you suggesting that Iraq and georgia are morally equivalent to each other? But if you can put away your America hatred for a moment, what do you thik of the idea that China may use the events in georia to thier advantage in thier struggle against Tiawan? Or is snark about the maximum difficulty for your thought process?

[Rex Kickass]

Funny. Don't quit your day job. Are you suggesting that Iraq and georgia are morally equivalent to each other? But if you can put away your America hatred for a moment, what do you thik of the idea that China may use the events in georia to thier advantage in thier struggle against Tiawan? Or is snark about the maximum difficulty for your thought process?

 

You could make a moral equivalency argument to Russia's behavior with Georgia, absolutely.

 

South Ossetia has been a troublesome but accepted province of Georgia for most of recent history, and Russia alleges systematic oppression of the Russian minority that makes up the bulk of this province's population. Whether or not this pretext is true, it was pretext enough to justify an invasion of Georgian soil.

 

This is the extension of the Bush doctrine that we never wanted to see, frankly. Before you go and say I'm blaming America, I'm not. This is just an opportunity for Russia to take some degree of diplomatic cover for an act it would have done regardless of our involvement in Iraq. The problem is that our involvement in Iraq not only gives Russia an excuse that is difficult for us to wash away (since its the same one we used five years ago), but also renders us much weaker in being able to take the international leadership role that we should be able to take to defuse this situation.

[pierard]

I wonder if China is keeping an eye on the Russia/georgia situation. Seeing how we haven't done a thing there, maybe this will give them the courage to go take back Tiawan, sinec they think it is there anyway. The problem in dealing with countries like Russia and China, is that they don't give a flying f*** what the 'world community' thinks about what they do. They will destroy hospitals, kill civilians, shoot at the press, whatever. And the 'world comminuty' doesn't hold them accountable for those actions, other than 'condemning their actions'. Ooooohhh, that's strong.

 

Simply put, Russia/Georgia and China/Taiwan are two completely different situations in every front. The recent elections in Taiwan have greatly decreased tensions between the PRC and the ROC. As an example, there are now direct flights between China and Taiwan. China is not about to march into Taiwan because of some other completely unrelated conflict.

 

 

[EvilMonkey]

Simply put, Russia/Georgia and China/Taiwan are two completely different situations in every front. The recent elections in Taiwan have greatly decreased tensions between the PRC and the ROC. As an example, there are now direct flights between China and Taiwan. China is not about to march into Taiwan because of some other completely unrelated conflict.

I realize that in and of themselves they are completely different situations. But my thought was now that China has noticed that Russia could invade, kill people, stall and basically do whatever they want without any real repercussions, maybe now would be a good time to finally put Tiawan in their place. regardless of their lowered tensions, China has always regarded them as part of China from the start. And I wouldn't put anything past China. I think that region bears alot of extra caution over the next several months.

[EvilMonkey]

You could make a moral equivalency argument to Russia's behavior with Georgia, absolutely.

 

South Ossetia has been a troublesome but accepted province of Georgia for most of recent history, and Russia alleges systematic oppression of the Russian minority that makes up the bulk of this province's population. Whether or not this pretext is true, it was pretext enough to justify an invasion of Georgian soil.

 

This is the extension of the Bush doctrine that we never wanted to see, frankly. Before you go and say I'm blaming America, I'm not. This is just an opportunity for Russia to take some degree of diplomatic cover for an act it would have done regardless of our involvement in Iraq. The problem is that our involvement in Iraq not only gives Russia an excuse that is difficult for us to wash away (since its the same one we used five years ago), but also renders us much weaker in being able to take the international leadership role that we should be able to take to defuse this situation.

I can see the equivalency argument for the 'reasons' for going to war, but not in their actions once there. Russia has killed indiscriminately and destoryed at will anything and everything in its path. The US did not do this and took great pains to try and avoid civilian casualties and destruction. ues, they happens sometimes, but the didn't happen on purpose, and when they did they were always investigated because of the anti-war groups here and abroad howling about the eeeevil America. Russia just flips the world the bird and says 'oh well'.

[lostfan]

I can see the equivalency argument for the 'reasons' for going to war, but not in their actions once there. Russia has killed indiscriminately and destoryed at will anything and everything in its path. The US did not do this and took great pains to try and avoid civilian casualties and destruction. ues, they happens sometimes, but the didn't happen on purpose, and when they did they were always investigated because of the anti-war groups here and abroad howling about the eeeevil America. Russia just flips the world the bird and says 'oh well'.

Out of curiosity have you ever seen the human rights report on Iraq? It's long, and I didn't read the whole thing, but while they rip America for the civilian casualties in some cases, they give the coalition credit for trying to avoid them when they could, and things like using precision weapons etc.

[lostfan]

Funny. Don't quit your day job. Are you suggesting that Iraq and georgia are morally equivalent to each other? But if you can put away your America hatred for a moment, what do you thik of the idea that China may use the events in georia to thier advantage in thier struggle against Tiawan? Or is snark about the maximum difficulty for your thought process?

Please don't equate self-criticism of our own mistakes and missteps with "America-hating"

 

It's no different than yelling at Swisher when he misreads a fly ball and lets it fall for a double, or Boone Logan when he throws a meatball on the first pitch and lets 2 inherited runners score. It doesn't mean you hate the Sox.

Edited August 23, 2008 by lostfan

[EvilMonkey]

Out of curiosity have you ever seen the human rights report on Iraq? It's long, and I didn't read the whole thing, but while they rip America for the civilian casualties in some cases, they give the coalition credit for trying to avoid them when they could, and things like using precision weapons etc.

See, that is what I am saying. The US went out of thier way to avoid civilian casualties, sometimes to their own detriment. I didn't see Russia going to the UN trying to get a diplomatic resolution before invading. I didn't see Russia get together a coalition of other countries to help them liberate the poor city that wanted Russia back. I also didn't see Russia give two s***s about the poor Ossetians before Georgia seperated either.

[Rex Kickass]

See, that is what I am saying. The US went out of thier way to avoid civilian casualties, sometimes to their own detriment. I didn't see Russia going to the UN trying to get a diplomatic resolution before invading. I didn't see Russia get together a coalition of other countries to help them liberate the poor city that wanted Russia back. I also didn't see Russia give two s***s about the poor Ossetians before Georgia seperated either.

America going to the UN has a lot more to do with domestic policy concerns than it does about what any other nation's concerns about what the US does in Iraq.

[Balta1701]

See, that is what I am saying. The US went out of thier way to avoid civilian casualties, sometimes to their own detriment. I didn't see Russia going to the UN trying to get a diplomatic resolution before invading. I didn't see Russia get together a coalition of other countries to help them liberate the poor city that wanted Russia back. I also didn't see Russia give two s***s about the poor Ossetians before Georgia seperated either.

To give the counter-point...did you see the Georgians going before the UN to get a resolution on the matter before they launched their attack that started the campaign? Did you see Georgia going out of their way to avoid civilian casualties in those territories before the Russian counterattack began? And Russia has had an interest in these territories for years, even though it hasn't been enough such that we paid attention. In 1991-1992 these same provinces tried to break away from Georgia, Georgia invaded them, Russia sent what aid and equipment to the provinces as they could at the time, and wound up helping to broker a cease-fire and stationing peacekeeping troops there.

[Wise Master Buehrle]

See, that is what I am saying. The US went out of thier way to avoid civilian casualties, sometimes to their own detriment. I didn't see Russia going to the UN trying to get a diplomatic resolution before invading. I didn't see Russia get together a coalition of other countries to help them liberate the poor city that wanted Russia back. I also didn't see Russia give two s***s about the poor Ossetians before Georgia seperated either.

 

ALso didn't see or hear Georgia going to the UN for a diplomatic resolution for their invasion of South Ossetia. Russia should go to the UN to fix anything, but Georgia shouldn't??? Surely there was a more reasonable way for Georgia to take care of South Ossetia that didn't include genocide... now if you would put away your Russia hatred for a moment, you would realize that Russia is doing an honorable thing sticking up for their people... the South Ossetians needed help because they can't match the US-aided Georgian military.

Edited August 23, 2008 by YahtzeeSox

[mr_genius]

To give the counter-point...did you see the Georgians going before the UN to get a resolution on the matter before they launched their attack that started the campaign? Did you see Georgia going out of their way to avoid civilian casualties in those territories before the Russian counterattack began? And Russia has had an interest in these territories for years, even though it hasn't been enough such that we paid attention. In 1991-1992 these same provinces tried to break away from Georgia, Georgia invaded them, Russia sent what aid and equipment to the provinces as they could at the time, and wound up helping to broker a cease-fire and stationing peacekeeping troops there.

 

Ah yes, of course, the misunderstood and righteous Soviets. I think Obama and Biden should go with this stance for the election.

 

I know, Obama won't. He already clearly stated that Russia needs to get out of Georgia.

Edited August 23, 2008 by mr_genius

[southsider2k5]

You know who else doesn't give a flying f*** what the world community thinks? The USA. Hey, let's let Georgia invade South Ossetia and destroy hospitals, kill civilians, shoot at the press, etc. Hey, let's go put some missile defense systems in Poland. Hey, let's go "liberate" Iraq. hey, let's force 'democracy' on sovereign nations around the world. The only place the USA isn't being held accountable for these actions is in... hmmm... the USA... lazy Americans sit by while George "I Wish I Was a Dictator" Bush runs rampant around the world with his globalist views... Ooooohhh, that's strong.

 

And everyone wonders why the rest of the world hates us.

 

Yeah, because why would countries have anything to fear from Russia, right?

[lostfan]

Yeah, because why would countries have anything to fear from Russia, right?

I never could understand our insistence on doing that even if the official reason given is to guard against missiles from Iran. We've had treaties in place for a while now, there was a balance and a status quo, both sides were content with it and glad there was no reason to change anything since everything was relatively calm. Then we pull out of one of the treaties and decide to one-up them, although that's not what we said we were doing, that's the only way to view it if you are Russia, which would become obvious if you asked your average Russian to list their perceived external national security threats in order. Now we are back to where we were in the 70s again. Except we are going to act like we didn't provoke it.

 

Hi there 21st century arms race.

[EvilMonkey]

I never could understand our insistence on doing that even if the official reason given is to guard against missiles from Iran. We've had treaties in place for a while now, there was a balance and a status quo, both sides were content with it and glad there was no reason to change anything since everything was relatively calm. Then we pull out of one of the treaties and decide to one-up them, although that's not what we said we were doing, that's the only way to view it if you are Russia, which would become obvious if you asked your average Russian to list their perceived external national security threats in order. Now we are back to where we were in the 70s again. Except we are going to act like we didn't provoke it.

 

Hi there 21st century arms race.

I know 3 people currently in Russia, 1 is an American who is working there, and they do not feel that way. According to them, the average Russian loves America (especially our TV shows, for some reason. maybe Russian soaps are really that bad) and wonders why both governments keep playing politics. I first met them 3 years ago in Miami at a work convention, and email with them regularly.

 

And just something different, it had been rumored for years before we pulled out of the one treaty that Russia had been working on their own anti-missle defense systems in violation of the treaty, and had just not been able to come up with a working system so far. Maybe they still haven't, hence their anger at being 'one-uped'?

[lostfan]

I know 3 people currently in Russia, 1 is an American who is working there, and they do not feel that way. According to them, the average Russian loves America (especially our TV shows, for some reason. maybe Russian soaps are really that bad) and wonders why both governments keep playing politics. I first met them 3 years ago in Miami at a work convention, and email with them regularly.

 

And just something different, it had been rumored for years before we pulled out of the one treaty that Russia had been working on their own anti-missle defense systems in violation of the treaty, and had just not been able to come up with a working system so far. Maybe they still haven't, hence their anger at being 'one-uped'?

I'm talking about their government, and the media translations I read sometimes (albeit their media is still pretty much state-run media now, although nowhere near as bad as China). The Russian government is shady as hell, I know. I'm sure the people were just as relieved to see the Cold War end as we were although it probably didn't happen the way they wanted. They were scared s***less of us during the 80s. But still, their foreign policy is based off the US and what the US does.

 

If they were violating the treaty while we were monitoring them though that should've been something that we took up with them directly, maybe we just couldn't prove it. But they had a lot of programs they scrapped at the end of the Cold War that they had no need for anymore, and now they probably have the budget to start those them back up again, along with a reason to. Not good.

[EvilMonkey]

I'm talking about their government, and the media translations I read sometimes (albeit their media is still pretty much state-run media now, although nowhere near as bad as China). The Russian government is shady as hell, I know. I'm sure the people were just as relieved to see the Cold War end as we were although it probably didn't happen the way they wanted. They were scared s***less of us during the 80s. But still, their foreign policy is based off the US and what the US does.

 

If they were violating the treaty while we were monitoring them though that should've been something that we took up with them directly, maybe we just couldn't prove it. But they had a lot of programs they scrapped at the end of the Cold War that they had no need for anymore, and now they probably have the budget to start those them back up again, along with a reason to. Not good.

Well, you did say 'if you asked your average Russian'. I understand the point as it relates to government. And I in no way mean to imply that the few people I know translate to a whole population. It was funny to listen to them talk about the 80's, as they were in thier teens and alternatly scared to death from their propaganda media, and excited about America from the snippets they got from people who went there like music, clothes and stories. A funny story, although not funny at the time, I used to collect stamps, especially Russian stamps. One day when I was 10, I wrote a letter to the Russian Embassy in DC asking if they know of any places that I could get Russian stamps from in the midwest. I got a nice letter back thanking me for my interest in their stamps, along with about a dozen stamps and a list of 2 places I could possibly get stamps from. A week later some nice guys in black suits showed up at my dad's work asking all sorts of questions, and showed up at my school. Although they never talked to me, they did talk to my teacher and principal. My dad didn't like me much for a few weeks after that. My teacher even longer. Maybe that is why I have been audited 3 times so far? Hmmm.

[lostfan]

Well, you did say 'if you asked your average Russian'. I understand the point as it relates to government. And I in no way mean to imply that the few people I know translate to a whole population. It was funny to listen to them talk about the 80's, as they were in thier teens and alternatly scared to death from their propaganda media, and excited about America from the snippets they got from people who went there like music, clothes and stories. A funny story, although not funny at the time, I used to collect stamps, especially Russian stamps. One day when I was 10, I wrote a letter to the Russian Embassy in DC asking if they know of any places that I could get Russian stamps from in the midwest. I got a nice letter back thanking me for my interest in their stamps, along with about a dozen stamps and a list of 2 places I could possibly get stamps from. A week later some nice guys in black suits showed up at my dad's work asking all sorts of questions, and showed up at my school. Although they never talked to me, they did talk to my teacher and principal. My dad didn't like me much for a few weeks after that. My teacher even longer. Maybe that is why I have been audited 3 times so far? Hmmm.

That was just a poor choice of words on my part. That story is hilarious though. When was this, the 80s? Do you still have the stamps at least? If I did that I'd probably get fired immediately... even if what I was doing was something totally innocent like collecting stamps they'd just fire me because of where I work and because I really should know better.

[EvilMonkey]

That was just a poor choice of words on my part. That story is hilarious though. When was this, the 80s? Do you still have the stamps at least? If I did that I'd probably get fired immediately... even if what I was doing was something totally innocent like collecting stamps they'd just fire me because of where I work and because I really should know better.

1976. And i do have the stamps still, along with thousands others, but haven't been able to find the letter for years.