After Washburn and Byrd, KW is looking at this list

[whitesoxbrian]

Could my boy Odalis Perez still clear waivers for Washington? LHP and his ERA is 4.1. We could have a L, R, L, R, L rotation from here on out and then use him or Vazquez in the El Duque role when we get to October...

[joejoedairy]

Yeah, I like how Beckett, Webb, and Lee are more possible than Jason Marquis. You'd need like 5 PS3's, 7 XBOX's, 15 bags of crack, and like 4 bucketfuls of roofies just to get one of those teams to make one of those players available and then convince everyone else to let them through waivers unclaimed. And if you could pull that off, we're still talking truckloads of KY and the services of about 1/4 of all the female independent contractors South America has to offer if we're to convince a GM to give one of those guys up for what we've got on the farm.

 

the only good thing about this thread is caufields avatar

Edited August 12, 2008 by joejoedairy

[witesoxfan]

Could my boy Odalis Perez still clear waivers for Washington? LHP and his ERA is 4.1. We could have a L, R, L, R, L rotation from here on out and then use him or Vazquez in the El Duque role when we get to October...

 

Yeah I talked about Odalis already. He's gross as anything other than a 6th starter.

[harfman77]

I am starting to thing Millwood could be an option. He is on the DL now but will return soon, has a contract similar to Joses for next season and has a vestion option for 2010.

 

I am not sure why KW would clear all the remaining high ceiling prospects in the system for a head case like Bedard. He is the most unmotivated pitcher in the majors and that is something Coop cant fix. There are several options out there, but it will probably be someone we have not thought about or talked about if and when a deal does happen.

[WCSox]

That's obviously the problem KW has...he can't afford to go out and get Penny, Padilla or even Brett Myers, who would be a huge risk down the stretch. He probably can't even afford to give up what they're asking for Washburn. It is a little mysterious about Byrd though...the guy's a veteran, knows the AL Central as well as anyone, he beat Contreras in the 2005 playoffs when he was clearly the best pitcher in baseball and he would bring that "bulldog" (the pitching version of grinder) mentality to the pitching staff. Vazquez just seems too nonchalant about his losses...the same thing Garland was oft-accused of.

 

If I were to guess, my feeling is that Shapiro isn't exactly eager to help out a division rival and is asking for more than the average GM for Byrd. The financial incentive of saving a month and a half of Byrd's contract is pretty much nil. I get the feeling that he's asking Kenny for Broadway or Fields.

 

Agreed that Vazquez is a puss but, unless Kenny decides to go with a three-man rotation next season, we're pretty much stuck with him for another year.

 

OTOH, any of the band-aid solutions cost the White Sox further minor league depth and still probably leave us short of the playoffs. He's in a really precarious situation where he will tempted to overreach, especially if we are within shouting distance after the Twins' current homestand is over and the Twins are 2-3 games ahead of us (probably).

 

Yeah, I have no idea what he's going to do. At this point, I'd almost rather him just stand pat and let this current bunch sink or swim. Over the past 9 months, he's brought in Cabrera, Swisher, Quentin, Alexei, Linebrink, Dotel, and Griffey. That's some serious re-tooling and it cost the organization to give up even more of its depleted farm system. It's to the point now where we have very few ML-ready players of value in AA and AAA (one might even argue that we have zero). I'm not in favor of mortgaging the future by trading away our best A-ballers as well, so that this good-but-not-great team has a shot at the playoffs. Not when veteran "sluggers" on the team are hitting .220-.240 and veteran middle relievers are crapping their pants in the 7th and 8th innings.

 

[YASNY]

If I were to guess, my feeling is that Shapiro isn't exactly eager to help out a division rival and is asking for more than the average GM for Byrd. The financial incentive of saving a month and a half of Byrd's contract is pretty much nil. I get the feeling that he's asking Kenny for Broadway or Fields.

 

Agreed that Vazquez is a puss but, unless Kenny decides to go with a three-man rotation next season, we're pretty much stuck with him for another year.

 

 

 

Yeah, I have no idea what he's going to do. At this point, I'd almost rather him just stand pat and let this current bunch sink or swim. Over the past 9 months, he's brought in Cabrera, Swisher, Quentin, Alexei, Linebrink, Dotel, and Griffey. That's some serious re-tooling and it cost the organization to give up even more of its depleted farm system. It's to the point now where we have very few ML-ready players of value in AA and AAA (one might even argue that we have zero). I'm not in favor of mortgaging the future by trading away our best A-ballers as well, so that this good-but-not-great team has a shot at the playoffs. Not when veteran "sluggers" on the team are hitting .220-.240 and veteran middle relievers are crapping their pants in the 7th and 8th innings.

 

Of all the players you mentioned, Swisher is only one that cost us anything that may prove to be of value from our farm system. Cabrera cost an established ML pitcher. Quenten cost a single A 1b ( who on here wouldn't make that deal again? ). Alexei was a FA pick up, as was Linebrink and Dotel. Griffey cost a couple of guys who didn't cut it in the bigs ... though Griffey ain't cutting it either.

 

[Kalapse]

Of all the players you mentioned, Swisher is only one that cost us anything that may prove to be of value from our farm system. Cabrera cost an established ML pitcher. Quenten cost a single A 1b ( who on here wouldn't make that deal again? ). Alexei was a FA pick up, as was Linebrink and Dotel. Griffey cost a couple of guys who didn't cut it in the bigs ... though Griffey ain't cutting it either.

Technically Linebrink cost us a 2nd round pick and the Cabrera/Garland deal should be a net gain prospect wise when both hit free agency after this season.

[WCSox]

Of all the players you mentioned, Swisher is only one that cost us anything that may prove to be of value from our farm system.

 

That's because the Sox farm system is almost completely depleted of ML-ready players, and all the more reason for Kenny to think twice about depleting it further.

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Technically Linebrink cost us a 2nd round pick and the Cabrera/Garland deal should be a net gain prospect wise when both hit free agency after this season.

After seeing us pass on Tim Melville in the third round in order to draft Brent Morel when we could have replaced that pick, I'm convinced the Sox didn't lose anything at all.

[caulfield12]

No. Oh, well, except for where you posted the exact same list with the exact same formatting and said that Webb and Beckett were possibilities for KW deals in the next 2 weeks. But, no, other than that, nowhere at all. Boy, am I embarrassed for misreading that one! I'm glad I have more serious baseball fans like you around to straighten me out. How soon can we get Mulder here? That guy's awesome. He pitches for the Philadelphia A's, right?

 

Ummm...first of all, you might want to blame the Internet in rural Thailand for why it posted three times (as I thought I posted once here and once in the waiver wire section)...I'm sure you have tried to post to Soxtalk from the middle of a third world country before and you expect that everyone in the world is fully-outfitted with T1 cable line and that double-posts never occur because that kind of thing would never happen in the United States.

 

I posted it twice...please send me to Guantanamo Bay. Did you just wake up on the wrong side of the bed, seriously?

 

In the time I've posted at chisox.com, WSI or here, I can't remember deliberately fighting with anyone but ncorgbl, but that's because he was such a jack-ss.

 

The original list, I had underlined those players who were possibilities. I can't remember, maybe I wrote down asterisk instead of underline, but I'm sure that you knew (if you read the boards at all) that I've never said anything so preposterous.

 

Well...then again, sure, we can get any player in baseball, technically, if we trade away Ramirez, Quentin, Danks and Jenks. Doesn't make it helpful trade, however.

 

 

 

[witesoxfan]

If I were to guess, my feeling is that Shapiro isn't exactly eager to help out a division rival and is asking for more than the average GM for Byrd.

 

Which is why he dealt Byrd to Boston for a PTBNL or cash? Are you f***ing serious? This is one of KW's non-moves that is going to drive me wild, even amongst rumors prior to the season that Byrd is (and potentially still is, for all I care) an HGH user. Byrd's dealing isn't going to f*** the Indians in the long run, regardless of whether he helped the Tigers, Twins, or Red Sox...so why did the f***ing Sawkx give him above all?

 

I don't get it

 

Yeah, I have no idea what he's going to do. At this point, I'd almost rather him just stand pat and let this current bunch sink or swim. Over the past 9 months, he's brought in Cabrera, Swisher, Quentin, Alexei, Linebrink, Dotel, and Griffey. That's some serious re-tooling and it cost the organization to give up even more of its depleted farm system. It's to the point now where we have very few ML-ready players of value in AA and AAA (one might even argue that we have zero). I'm not in favor of mortgaging the future by trading away our best A-ballers as well, so that this good-but-not-great team has a shot at the playoffs.

 

I would like to point out that one of the Sox best A-ball sluggers returned, in net, Carlos Quentin. Precisely. No catch. That's what Chris Carter, who was a monster in low-A Kanny, was traded away for last year. Nothing against the dude (I love him...I interviewed him)...but he was in A-ball (and as I recall, he's putting up good numbers this year too...he should be a major league power hitter someday), showed promising numbers, peripherals, and measurables, and was traded away for a dude who the DBacks had thrown in the scrapheap. KW can trade those A-ballers for MLB players any day of the f***ing week as far as I'm concerned. A Carter for Quentin trade doesn't happen any day, but a Shelby and Fields for Beltre plus a bit could help the Sox dramatically. Just saying.

 

Not when veteran "sluggers" on the team are hitting .220-.240 and veteran middle relievers are crapping their pants in the 7th and 8th innings.

 

You are merely talking of Konerko here, right? Cuz I know you hate Thome, but, God-forbid, he's once again one of the best hitters in the league. God-forbid. Cuz, thanks to him, the Sox won that last game against Detroit 6-5. Without Thome, the Sox probably lose (and I italicize probably because whoever wasn't in the lineup that day could have hit a homer too). Speak what you want of late and close stats, but, as far as I'm concerned, early and close means just as much, because, if your bullpen is good, late and close means absolutely f***ing nothing to me.

 

He's going nowhere and I hope you know this by now.

 

I also hope you understand that the Sox pen has gone to absolute s*** since Linebrink went on the DL; had he been healthy this entire time, I imagine the Sox would be 3.5 games up at this point. Without Linebrink, there has been a huge struggle to get to the 9th, let alone keeping the game close to even get to Bobby. When the bullpen was healthy, it was clockwork - 6th inning, starter leaves; Dotel enters, does work; Linebrink enters, does work; Jenks enters, does work. It was clockwork, and the bullpen has struggled to conform to that. They'll struggle when he gets back too. If they're in first when the bullpen gets back to 100%, the Sox will win the division and if they hold a lead in the postseason, it'll be a struggle for any team to beat them.

 

Technically Linebrink cost us a 2nd round pick and the Cabrera/Garland deal should be a net gain prospect wise when both hit free agency after this season.

 

That's because the Sox farm system is almost completely depleted of ML-ready players, and all the more reason for Kenny to think twice about depleting it further.

 

Kalapse's reasoning has brought us to another point...Garland was traded for the White Sox shortstop this season plus two draft picks in the 2009 draft. I would venture to guess that the Sox will draft within slot at about #22 (or wherever), they'll reach for a guy at 37 (or whatever it is) and take a guy who was slotted for the mid-to-late 2nd that they like who should make the majors and have value in a trade or at the MLB with their sandwich pick. I don't think they get good value for the second 1st rounder, but maybe they do, and if they do, f***ing fantastic. KW is restocking the farm systemt and he'll continue doing it just as he has; he will also continue depleting it at a rate that you've never seen, yet he'll deal no-namers and guys who have the tools yet still can't succeed in the majors at an uncountable rate. It's fascinating, isn't it?

[caulfield12]

Which is why he dealt Byrd to Boston for a PTBNL or cash? Are you f***ing serious? This is one of KW's non-moves that is going to drive me wild, even amongst rumors prior to the season that Byrd is (and potentially still is, for all I care) an HGH user. Byrd's dealing isn't going to f*** the Indians in the long run, regardless of whether he helped the Tigers, Twins, or Red Sox...so why did the f***ing Sawkx give him above all?

 

I don't get it

 

 

 

I would like to point out that one of the Sox best A-ball sluggers returned, in net, Carlos Quentin. Precisely. No catch. That's what Chris Carter, who was a monster in low-A Kanny, was traded away for last year. Nothing against the dude (I love him...I interviewed him)...but he was in A-ball (and as I recall, he's putting up good numbers this year too...he should be a major league power hitter someday), showed promising numbers, peripherals, and measurables, and was traded away for a dude who the DBacks had thrown in the scrapheap. KW can trade those A-ballers for MLB players any day of the f***ing week as far as I'm concerned. A Carter for Quentin trade doesn't happen any day, but a Shelby and Fields for Beltre plus a bit could help the Sox dramatically. Just saying.

 

 

 

You are merely talking of Konerko here, right? Cuz I know you hate Thome, but, God-forbid, he's once again one of the best hitters in the league. God-forbid. Cuz, thanks to him, the Sox won that last game against Detroit 6-5. Without Thome, the Sox probably lose (and I italicize probably because whoever wasn't in the lineup that day could have hit a homer too). Speak what you want of late and close stats, but, as far as I'm concerned, early and close means just as much, because, if your bullpen is good, late and close means absolutely f***ing nothing to me.

 

He's going nowhere and I hope you know this by now.

 

I also hope you understand that the Sox pen has gone to absolute s*** since Linebrink went on the DL; had he been healthy this entire time, I imagine the Sox would be 3.5 games up at this point. Without Linebrink, there has been a huge struggle to get to the 9th, let alone keeping the game close to even get to Bobby. When the bullpen was healthy, it was clockwork - 6th inning, starter leaves; Dotel enters, does work; Linebrink enters, does work; Jenks enters, does work. It was clockwork, and the bullpen has struggled to conform to that. They'll struggle when he gets back too. If they're in first when the bullpen gets back to 100%, the Sox will win the division and if they hold a lead in the postseason, it'll be a struggle for any team to beat them.

 

 

 

 

 

Kalapse's reasoning has brought us to another point...Garland was traded for the White Sox shortstop this season plus two draft picks in the 2009 draft. I would venture to guess that the Sox will draft within slot at about #22 (or wherever), they'll reach for a guy at 37 (or whatever it is) and take a guy who was slotted for the mid-to-late 2nd that they like who should make the majors and have value in a trade or at the MLB with their sandwich pick. I don't think they get good value for the second 1st rounder, but maybe they do, and if they do, f***ing fantastic. KW is restocking the farm systemt and he'll continue doing it just as he has; he will also continue depleting it at a rate that you've never seen, yet he'll deal no-namers and guys who have the tools yet still can't succeed in the majors at an uncountable rate. It's fascinating, isn't it?

 

 

Looking back realistically, notwithstanding all the b--ching and moaning, there are only a few players that have been traded that you could make legit arguments that the Sox are worse off for not having...

 

Gio Gonzalez and Sweeney (debateable, and the Sox would definitely not be better off THIS season, in terms of position to make the playoffs)

 

Chris B. Young (debateable, although long-term still looks to favor the D-Backs, it's not quite so clear-cut...and Young still isn't a sure thing...to be anything more than Mike Cameron, Jr.) also depends on what get back in return for Javier, of if we make the playoffs and he has a win or two there

 

Frank Francisco (we wouldn't have won it all in 05 without Everett)

 

Matt Guerrier (while Guerrier has had a substantial Twins' career, Marte was VERY good for a while and was still a serviceable, albeit undependable in the latter stages of '05, lefty reliever...SUMMARY=at times fantastic/electric, like Thornton, but maddeningly inconsistent) And, in all fairness to Thornton, he has been overused/overexposed recently due to the Linebrink injury...which Thornton acknowledged was a big reason for the struggles in the final BOS game.

 

 

[caulfield12]

The other major complaint is the young players in our system that we rode to the point where their value was almost nothing...in other words, we missed their "sell by" dates by wide margins. Of course, it's easy to say in hindsight that Borchard/Fields had big swings or were more athletes playing baseball, rather than baseball players who happened to be athletic (see Alexei Ramirez or A. Soriano). It would have been hard to predict the rash of injuries that overtook Barcelo, Parque, Honel, Stumm and Rauch. Of course, many veteran posters were never convinced that Rauch had dominating stuff, the mentality to be a front-line starter or the type of pitching motion that would lead to durability.

 

Bottom line, Borchard and Rauch failing miserably at the big league level especially hurt, no doubt about that.

 

Joe Borchard (although Thornton has worked out great, he could have gotten us a starting position player or pitcher at one point)

Josh Fields

Rob Valido (kidding...sort of)

Kris Honel

Royce Ring

Matt Ginter

Lorenzo Barcelo

Brian West

Rocky Biddle (although the Colon deal was still a "steal" for the Sox)

Jeff Liefer

Brian Anderson

Lance Broadway

Kyle McCullough

Sean Tracey

Chris Singleton

Jeff Abbott (people forget he was a pretty highly-touted prospect, similar to Reed)

Kevin Beirne

Aaron Myette (actually, Clayton had more of an impact, but I would rather we left Valentin at SS, in retrospect)

Danny Wright

Jon Rauch

Jason Dellaero

Jason Stumm

Rob Purvis

Willie Harris

Josh Stewart

Francisco Hernandez

Andy Gonzalez

 

Of course, the Devil's Advocate position is that most of these guys were NEVER that good in the first place, and that we were lucky to get anything in return for them!!!

 

The other disappointment/observation...has been the huge lack of impact from our first rounders/scouting, when many prospects such as Matt Garza and Matt Cain (25th pick in 2002) were taken lower than our reaches and relievers/Royce Rings (one of the weirdest picks of all...thanks for the memories, Robbie Alomar!)

 

Finally, the huge disappointment with Latin American scouting since the Ordonez and Lee deals.

 

You look past Latin America, and the MLB contributions of Ramirez/El Duque/Contreras and Takatsu/Iguchi, it's a barren wasteland. We still haven't found a player that we "incubated" in our own system. Perhaps Jose Martinez or Juan Silverio will change that, but they're both pretty raw at this point and a long ways off from contributing to the Sox.

Edited August 13, 2008 by caulfield12

[GoodAsGould]

Looking back realistically, notwithstanding all the b--ching and moaning, there are only a few players that have been traded that you could make legit arguments that the Sox are worse off for not having...

 

Gio Gonzalez and Sweeney (debateable, and the Sox would definitely not be better off THIS season, in terms of position to make the playoffs)

 

Chris B. Young (debateable, although long-term still looks to favor the D-Backs, it's not quite so clear-cut...and Young still isn't a sure thing...to be anything more than Mike Cameron, Jr.) also depends on what get back in return for Javier, of if we make the playoffs and he has a win or two there

 

Frank Francisco (we wouldn't have won it all in 05 without Everett)

 

Matt Guerrier (while Guerrier has had a substantial Twins' career, Marte was VERY good for a while and was still a serviceable, albeit undependable in the latter stages of '05, lefty reliever...SUMMARY=at times fantastic/electric, like Thornton, but maddeningly inconsistent) And, in all fairness to Thornton, he has been overused/overexposed recently due to the Linebrink injury...which Thornton acknowledged was a big reason for the struggles in the final BOS game.

 

the francisco and rupe trade was for the first everett trade in which we didnt make playoffs. I think it was Rauch and Majewski the 2nd time

[caulfield12]

the francisco and rupe trade was for the first everett trade in which we didnt make playoffs. I think it was Rauch and Majewski the 2nd time

 

 

Yeah, that trade was in July of 2004.

 

I guess you can argue that it was worth it...although it would be nice to have Rauch back now.

 

Seems he had a lot of problems with KW and Ozzie in particular, I think he was late one time and there was the intimation of an attitude problem and I think Rauch also felt they didn't give him enough starts to prove himself?

[YASNY]

Yeah, that trade was in July of 2004.

 

I guess you can argue that it was worth it...although it would be nice to have Rauch back now.

 

Seems he had a lot of problems with KW and Ozzie in particular, I think he was late one time and there was the intimation of an attitude problem and I think Rauch also felt they didn't give him enough starts to prove himself?

 

He screwed up by leaving the clubhouse during a game.

[caulfield12]

He screwed up by leaving the clubhouse during a game.

 

 

Was that the Tigers' game he started in freezing conditions at home...then he got roughed up and left before the game was finished?

 

I can't remember clearly, but it seems like there was an "impasse" with the front office, he went on the radio and made some comments, and basically KW and Ozzie eventually decided to exile him from the organization. Maybe the actual trade happened later in the season.

[YASNY]

Was that the Tigers' game he started in freezing conditions at home...then he got roughed up and left before the game was finished?

 

I can't remember clearly, but it seems like there was an "impasse" with the front office, he went on the radio and made some comments, and basically KW and Ozzie eventually decided to exile him from the organization. Maybe the actual trade happened later in the season.

 

I don't remember the circumstances. I'm sorry.

[WCSox]

Sounds like somebody pissed in your Cheerios this morning...

 

Which is why he dealt Byrd to Boston for a PTBNL or cash? Are you f***ing serious? This is one of KW's non-moves that is going to drive me wild, even amongst rumors prior to the season that Byrd is (and potentially still is, for all I care) an HGH user. Byrd's dealing isn't going to f*** the Indians in the long run, regardless of whether he helped the Tigers, Twins, or Red Sox...so why did the f***ing Sawkx give him above all?

 

I don't get it

 

Apparently Byrd cleared waivers before Jose tore his Achilles. In other words, there was no room in the rotation for him at that point.

 

Also consider that the Indians got jack squat in return from the Red Sox. So, even if Kenny did claim him, why would they want to deal a solid pitcher to a division rival for that price? They would save a whole month and a half's worth of salary (whoppie!) and lose the draft picks. The draft picks might be worth more than what they got from Epstein.

 

I would like to point out that one of the Sox best A-ball sluggers returned, in net, Carlos Quentin. Precisely. No catch. That's what Chris Carter, who was a monster in low-A Kanny, was traded away for last year. Nothing against the dude (I love him...I interviewed him)...but he was in A-ball (and as I recall, he's putting up good numbers this year too...he should be a major league power hitter someday), showed promising numbers, peripherals, and measurables, and was traded away for a dude who the DBacks had thrown in the scrapheap. KW can trade those A-ballers for MLB players any day of the f***ing week as far as I'm concerned. A Carter for Quentin trade doesn't happen any day, but a Shelby and Fields for Beltre plus a bit could help the Sox dramatically. Just saying.

 

The Sox need to stop rolling the dice and they need to develop players. Kenny's the best wheeler-dealer GM I've ever seen, but he's not going to be able to continue trading for ML-ready players if he stays on this course. The Sox have very little left in AA and AAA, which is why a washed-up Griffey was Kenny's big deadline move this year.

 

You are merely talking of Konerko here, right? Cuz I know you hate Thome, but, God-forbid, he's once again one of the best hitters in the league. God-forbid. Cuz, thanks to him, the Sox won that last game against Detroit 6-5. Without Thome, the Sox probably lose (and I italicize probably because whoever wasn't in the lineup that day could have hit a homer too). Speak what you want of late and close stats, but, as far as I'm concerned, early and close means just as much, because, if your bullpen is good, late and close means absolutely f***ing nothing to me

 

Wow, you have some serious anger issues.

 

Why would I "hate" anybody on the Sox? Especially somebody like Thome, who is pretty much universally-liked around the league. I don't have a massive hard-on for him like you do, but I still like the guy. I also think that we have too many players like him right now and would like to move his salary in the off-season and spend it on something that we actually need, but that's probably not going to happen. That said, I'm not exactly sitting in front of my TV and shaking my fist at him when he comes to the plate.

 

I also hope you understand that the Sox pen has gone to absolute s*** since Linebrink went on the DL; had he been healthy this entire time, I imagine the Sox would be 3.5 games up at this point. Without Linebrink, there has been a huge struggle to get to the 9th, let alone keeping the game close to even get to Bobby. When the bullpen was healthy, it was clockwork - 6th inning, starter leaves; Dotel enters, does work; Linebrink enters, does work; Jenks enters, does work. It was clockwork, and the bullpen has struggled to conform to that. They'll struggle when he gets back too. If they're in first when the bullpen gets back to 100%, the Sox will win the division and if they hold a lead in the postseason, it'll be a struggle for any team to beat them.

 

The Sox pen has gone to crap because Dotel, Thornton, and Logan aren't that good. It's pretty simple. Dotel hasn't put up a full quality season since the Tommy John surgery. Thornton was a cast-off from the Mariners and he sucked last year as well. I don't think that Logan has had a single solid year in the majors. Look at their career stats, for crying out loud! Is it really any wonder that these guys are getting hit?!

 

KW is restocking the farm systemt and he'll continue doing it just as he has; he will also continue depleting it at a rate that you've never seen, yet he'll deal no-namers and guys who have the tools yet still can't succeed in the majors at an uncountable rate. It's fascinating, isn't it?

 

:wacko:

 

Wow, all of this for saying that Kenny needs to focus more on player development. One would think that I cursed your mother or something.

Edited August 14, 2008 by WCSox

[caulfield12]

Sounds like somebody pissed in your Cheerios this morning...

 

 

 

Apparently Byrd cleared waivers before Jose tore his Achilles. In other words, there was no room in the rotation for him at that point.

 

Also consider that the Indians got jack squat in return from the Red Sox. So, even if Kenny did claim him, why would they want to deal a solid pitcher to a division rival for that price? They would save a whole month and a half's worth of salary (whoppie!) and lose the draft picks. The draft picks might be worth more than what they got from Epstein.

 

 

 

The Sox need to stop rolling the dice and they need to develop players. Kenny's the best wheeler-dealer GM I've ever seen, but he's not going to be able to continue trading for ML-ready players if he stays on this course. The Sox have very little left in AA and AAA, which is why a washed-up Griffey was Kenny's big deadline move this year.

 

 

 

Wow, you have some serious anger issues.

 

Why would I "hate" anybody on the Sox? Especially somebody like Thome, who is pretty much universally-liked around the league. I don't have a massive hard-on for him like you do, but I still like the guy. I also think that we have too many players like him right now and would like to move his salary in the off-season and spend it on something that we actually need, but that's probably not going to happen. That said, I'm not exactly sitting in front of my TV and shaking my fist at him when he comes to the plate.

 

 

 

The Sox pen has gone to crap because Dotel, Thornton, and Logan aren't that good. It's pretty simple. Dotel hasn't put up a full quality season since the Tommy John surgery. Thornton was a cast-off from the Mariners and he sucked last year as well. I don't think that Logan has had a single solid year in the majors. Look at their career stats, for crying out loud! Is it really any wonder that these guys are getting hit?!

 

 

 

:wacko:

 

Wow, all of this for saying that Kenny needs to focus more on player development. One would think that I cursed your mother or something.

 

That's the essence of set-up guys these days. If you look at the MLB "holds" leaders, you barely recognize half the names on the list, and that's if you are a die-hard Roto player looking for potential closer fill-ins.

 

Linebrink was as close as you can get to a known quantity for the past five years, but injury/durability/overuse concerns clouded that picture for many GM's.

 

With Thornton, you can argue at least he had first round talent. Of course, you can same the same thing about the likes of MacDougal, Sisco and Aardsma, among others. At least I give KW credit for trying a new approach...instead of throwing a bunch of talent against the wall and hoping that some of it would stick or "figure things out," he went to more veteran/proven relievers in Dotel and Linebrink, and it worked for 67% of the season.

 

Of course, then you turn to the development angle again. Maybe Richard, throwing just an inning or two, can replace Logan (the Logan of the first half of the season). Just the fact that Logan made the same jump as Scott Radinsky in 1990 without having anything close to Scott's pre-injury/health problems stuff says a lot about the state of the Sox farm system.

 

Even if your minor league starters fail, there should be enough quality arms to come up with a couple of serviceable pitchers. Right now, the best we can say is that Adam Russell is learning on the job and might be the next Jon Adkins at worst and Bob Howry at best. The fact that Carrasco is such an integral part of the pen (over the likes of Logan, Wasserman, Russell, Link, Rodriguez, etc.) should tell you all you need to know.

 

Of course, you can look at the Twins...who are at best, a little worse off than the Sox with Crain/Guerrier/Reyes as set-up men for Nathan.

 

Losing Neshek, Rincon imploding (due to the steroids case?) and Grant Balfour (now pitching well again for the Rays) all going south really was a blow to that organization, but those were three critical pitchers.

 

When the Twins had Romero/Hawkins/Guardado and then Nathan later...or when the Sox had Politte/Cotts/Hermanson/Jenks or Dotel/Linebrink/Jenks, things worked like clockwork. It's also telling that Politte and Cotts pretty much came out of nowhere and faded...the same thing could be said of Hermanson, only Jenks has had extended success, and nobody ever questioned his talent. Bottom line...you just never know what the heck will happen from year to year. Look at the Indians and Tigers this year, or the Royals for the first half of 2003.

 

[WCSox]

Bottom line...you just never know what the heck will happen from year to year. Look at the Indians and Tigers this year, or the Royals for the first half of 2003.

 

Ain't that the truth. Bullpens tend to be fickle because most of their components aren't really very good. Linebrink returning from the DL isn't going to magically improve Thornton's commmand or give Dotel a good offspeed pitch. It'll simply give those guys less opportunities to blow holds.

 

The expectations over Dotel here are mind-boggling. This guy is a shell of what he was in Houston, where he would hit 97 on the gun regularly. He hasn't had a quality season since blowing out his elbow a few years ago. He struggles to hit 93 now and doesn't have a good offspeed pitch to make it effective. He had a surprisingly nice first couple of months, but is it really a wonder that a guy with his lack of stuff is getting hit? The cracks were evident even before Linebrink went on the DL.

Edited August 14, 2008 by WCSox

[southsider2k5]

Why all of the hate on Dotel? He has put up spectacular numbers this year and has been a rock in some huge games. he has gave up a few games, but in general, the guy has been worth every penny of his salary and more.

[Dick Allen]

The expectations over Dotel here are mind-boggling. This guy is a shell of what he was in Houston, where he would hit 97 on the gun regularly. He hasn't had a quality season since blowing out his elbow a few years ago. He struggles to hit 93 now and doesn't have a good offspeed pitch to make it effective. He had a surprisingly nice first couple of months, but is it really a wonder that a guy with his lack of stuff is getting hit? The cracks were evident even before Linebrink went on the DL.

Considering he has 74 k's in 53.2 innings, has allowed 37 hits and has a 1.14 WHIP, I'll take the shell of what he was at Houston. He may struggle to hit 93, but it appears for the most part AL hitters struggle to hit against him.

[WCSox]

Considering he has 74 k's in 53.2 innings, has allowed 37 hits and has a 1.14 WHIP, I'll take the shell of what he was at Houston. He may struggle to hit 93, but it appears for the most part AL hitters struggle to hit against him.

 

That fine with me but, given his post-surgery track-record of mediocre performance, expectations need to be tempered.

 

[thedoctor]

That fine with me but, given his post-surgery track-record of mediocre performance, expectations need to be tempered.

 

expectations? there's 43 games left in the season. i think we pretty much know what we are getting from dotel at this point. which, btw, has been pretty damn good.