Has Michigan officially submitted to Allah?

[Soxbadger]

The problem with statement 1 is that no where in the article does it state that the weapon was loaded. The only reference to ammo is in regards to a receipt for an AK 47 and ammo. It does not say ammo was found in the gun or in the car.

 

The problem with statement 2 is that the basic idea of American freedom is that you are allowed to support and believe whatever you want, provided you dont take those beliefs and turn them into unlawful actions.

 

If you dislike that, you are free to move to another country that does not believe in the freedoms America stands for.

 

May I suggest China?

 

I doubt they have any problem with hanging people for bad thoughts.

[lostfan]

If you dislike that, you are free to move to another country that does not believe in the freedoms America stands for.

Stalin is dead.

[Texsox]

So do you think he should have served jail time, or was probation appropriate? As I stated earlier, just the resisting arrest should have warrented jail time. The rest would just be mitigating factors into making it longer. Felony arms possession is also jail time (which it said he was charged with). In gun-friendly Texas, if you were pulled over with an AK-47 in your backseat and resisted arrest, would you be out of jail?

 

There is too much we do not know before judging the judgment. First off we allow for gray areas and a sliding scale with crimes. Resisting arrest for example. He grabbed the door handle. That doesn't seem nearly as offensive as taking a swing, etc. Not being there, perhaps it was as much a reaction to being yanked from the car. I have seen, and I am certain others have, blooper reels and COPs episodes where people are dropped on their heads while getting pulled by police. It could have been as simple as that, we really don't know.

 

We do not know what deals were struck with the prosecution. He could have agreed to plead guilty in exchange for that recommendation. He may have provided some information on others. We just do not know.

 

In Texas, I can have a AK47 in my backseat without any problem. If after the dust settled and adrenalin stopped flowing, all I did was grab the door to my car as I was being dragged, trying to save my face from eating pavement, no, I doubt I would get any jail time.

 

What clouds this is his thoughts and beliefs. And at least in 2008 we still convict and sentence people primarily on what they did, not on what they may have been thinking.

 

I do know this, if this guy still has his rights, then all the good people still have theirs. When we start stripping people of their rights based on what they believe in, that gives the government way to much power in my book.

[EvilMonkey]

There is too much we do not know before judging the judgment. First off we allow for gray areas and a sliding scale with crimes. Resisting arrest for example. He grabbed the door handle. That doesn't seem nearly as offensive as taking a swing, etc. Not being there, perhaps it was as much a reaction to being yanked from the car. I have seen, and I am certain others have, blooper reels and COPs episodes where people are dropped on their heads while getting pulled by police. It could have been as simple as that, we really don't know.

 

We do not know what deals were struck with the prosecution. He could have agreed to plead guilty in exchange for that recommendation. He may have provided some information on others. We just do not know.

 

In Texas, I can have a AK47 in my backseat without any problem. If after the dust settled and adrenalin stopped flowing, all I did was grab the door to my car as I was being dragged, trying to save my face from eating pavement, no, I doubt I would get any jail time.

 

What clouds this is his thoughts and beliefs. And at least in 2008 we still convict and sentence people primarily on what they did, not on what they may have been thinking.

 

I do know this, if this guy still has his rights, then all the good people still have theirs. When we start stripping people of their rights based on what they believe in, that gives the government way to much power in my book.

Tex, note the timeline. He was stopped, verbally sparred with the police, moved his hand to the center consol where officers feared a weapon, his wrist was grabbed and he was ordered out, another officer spotted the Ak-47 and THEn they forcibly removed him from the vehicle. He resisted more, was whacked with a flashlite and a taser, and STILL refused to comply. So, he didn't just simply grab a door, he reacted in a menacing way, refused to follow instructions and was combative to the police. trust me, I KNOW that some police abuse thier power and authority. But this guy deserved jail time. Yes, he has rights. The cops didn't stop him for being Muslim, they had probably cause. If he passed background checks, he can legally own a gun. he CAN'T be walking around the park with it. And if the gun is not readily visible to the officer, you are supposed to inform them that you have a firearm, on you if you have a carry permit or in the trunk if a rifle, etc. Perhaps as you hinted he may have struck a deal. if so, it had better have been a juicy one to avoid jail time. And I certainly hope that he is subject to lots of searches and suspicion for a long time.

 

During the confrontation, officers observed Zorkot lower his right hand toward the center console, which was out of view. According to police reports, officers feared Zorkot may have been reaching for a weapon and grabbed his left wrist while ordering him to exit the vehicle.

 

An officer at the scene observed the AK-47 in the vehicle's backseat, and alerted her fellow officers that the Dearborn resident was armed. Zorkot was then forcibly removed from the vehicle through the driver's side door — although he initially refused to let go of the door.

 

When he refused to release the door, officers struck Zorkot's arm once with a plastic flashlight, however, the Dearborn resident refused to let go.

[Texsox]

Tex, note the timeline. He was stopped, verbally sparred with the police, moved his hand to the center consol where officers feared a weapon, his wrist was grabbed and he was ordered out, another officer spotted the Ak-47 and THEn they forcibly removed him from the vehicle. He resisted more, was whacked with a flashlite and a taser, and STILL refused to comply. So, he didn't just simply grab a door, he reacted in a menacing way, refused to follow instructions and was combative to the police. trust me, I KNOW that some police abuse thier power and authority. But this guy deserved jail time. Yes, he has rights. The cops didn't stop him for being Muslim, they had probably cause. If he passed background checks, he can legally own a gun. he CAN'T be walking around the park with it. And if the gun is not readily visible to the officer, you are supposed to inform them that you have a firearm, on you if you have a carry permit or in the trunk if a rifle, etc. Perhaps as you hinted he may have struck a deal. if so, it had better have been a juicy one to avoid jail time. And I certainly hope that he is subject to lots of searches and suspicion for a long time.

 

So much of this is conjecture. He moved his right wrist towards the center console where the cops worried he may have had a gun. Where was he suppose to lower his right hand too? There was no mention if a gun was there. Again, if he was walking around the park with a gun, they would have known he was armed before seeing the weapon in the backseat. So I am not agreeing he ever walked around the park if the weapon. (I also would not be surprised he did), but it just seems if he had been observed with the weapon they would have approached him in a much different manner and assumed he was armed.

 

How much jail time? A month? Ten years? And what have other defendants received for say kicking the squad car door, twisting away, punching a cop? I don't know

what other people have received and for what level of resist, so it is difficult to say he should have received this. Perhaps NSS could comment better, but I assume that 90% of the arrests involve some form of resist. I assume that not everyone puts on their own handcuffs and walks to the car.

 

Your question was should he have received jail time and I am still of the opinion we don't have the facts necessary to make that judgment but this seems within the realm of reason. I also think he he was a white Christian with say Pro-Life pamphlets no one would blink that he received probation.

 

I see you added. that quote.

 

What that seems to me is the cop is looking at this wack job in face paint and getting nervous, they see a weapon and freak out and grab him and start pulling him out of the car. It doesn't say if they ever ordered him out of the car.

[mr_genius]

The Dearborn resident pled guilty last month to the charges of possessing a weapon in a vehicle, possessing a weapon with unlawful intent and felony firearm.

 

 

what he was doing is not legal. this is obvious. he should have gotten more jail time for this felony.

 

i just hope this moron doesn't go on a killing spree.

 

 

[Texsox]

what he was doing is not legal. this is obvious. he should have gotten more jail time for this felony.

 

i just hope this moron doesn't go on a killing spree.

I was responding to "what if it was me" and "what if it was Texas" questions. Did it say he was found guilty of a felony? I thought all felonies had mandatory jail time?

 

But I still would like to know if he pled guilty in exchange for his plea. This may prevent him from legally owning any weapons. Not that it would make it impossible for him to obtain, but it does make it easier to lock him up the second time.

[mr_genius]

But I still would like to know if he pled guilty in exchange for his plea. This may prevent him from legally owning any weapons. Not that it would make it impossible for him to obtain, but it does make it easier to lock him up the second time.

 

Thats probably what happened. He gets no jail time, but is on probation and if he gets busted again he is going to prison. I would also go out on a limb here and guess law enforcement is going to be really following up on this guy during his probationary period. I wouldn't be surprised if the government tries to get deeper into this, kind of like they do with white supremacist terrorist groups in the US; this guy being lose, and watched, could actually help in prosecuting other members of the terrorist network.

Edited August 20, 2008 by mr_genius

[EvilMonkey]

1)So much of this is conjecture. 2) He moved his right wrist towards the center console where the cops worried he may have had a gun. Where was he suppose to lower his right hand too? There was no mention if a gun was there. Again, if he was walking around the park with a gun, they would have known he was armed before seeing the weapon in the backseat. So I am not agreeing he ever walked around the park if the weapon. (I also would not be surprised he did), but it just seems if he had been observed with the weapon they would have approached him in a much different manner and assumed he was armed.

 

3) How much jail time? A month? Ten years? And what have other defendants received for say kicking the squad car door, twisting away, punching a cop? I don't know

what other people have received and for what level of resist, so it is difficult to say he should have received this. Perhaps NSS could comment better, but I assume that 90% of the arrests involve some form of resist. I assume that not everyone puts on their own handcuffs and walks to the car.

 

4)Your question was should he have received jail time and I am still of the opinion we don't have the facts necessary to make that judgment but this seems within the realm of reason. I also think he he was a white Christian with say Pro-Life pamphlets no one would blink that he received probation.

 

I see you added. that quote.

 

5) What that seems to me is the cop is looking at this wack job in face paint and getting nervous, they see a weapon and freak out and grab him and start pulling him out of the car. It doesn't say if they ever ordered him out of the car.

 

OK, let' see here. So many things in that post i want to get the straight.

1) if we are going to start arguing semantics and conjecture with every damn story that gets posted here, there will be no discussions at all. At some point, we have to, at least for discussions sake, take the story at its word.

 

2) The story said he was seen walking around with a gun. WHY the officers didn't initially approach him with their guns out, I have no idea. As for the reaction to him moving towards the consol, you must not have been pulled over in a long time, at least not bycops who didn't know you. You always keep your hands where the oficers can see them, ESPECIALLY if you are wearing camo face paint.

 

3) How much jail time I don't care. the fact he got NONE is what pissed me off.

 

4) Take your scenerio and put it about 10 years ago, and maybe throw in a few abortion clinic pamphlets and you would be dead wrong that no one would blink. Even if it happened today, if he openly supported abortion killers, the Pro-Choice people and NOW would be on this faster than Homer Simpson on a doughnut.

 

5) Semantics here again. It doesn't say if they ordered him out of the car before they grabbed his wrist. They grabbed it fearing he was reaching for a weapon. While holding his wrist, they noticed a weapon and then ordered him out, and when he refused, dragged him out.

 

Since he did NOT get jail time, I hope he gave up something good. But his medical career could be alot more difficult now. Assuming the school doesn't kick him out for this, just imagine him trying to get malpractice insurance with these charges on his records. That is one bill I wouldn't want to see. And with people googling doctors nowadays, I wonder how many times his name will pop up with this info when people are checking out the new doc in town! I hope this follows him around forever.

[EvilMonkey]

Thats probably what happened. He gets no jail time, but is on probation and if he gets busted again he is going to prison. I would also go out on a limb here and guess law enforcement is going to be really following up on this guy during his probationary period. I wouldn't be surprised if the government tries to get deeper into this, kind of like they do with white supremacist terrorist groups in the US; this guy being lose, and watched, could actually help in prosecuting other members of the terrorist network.

I really hope you are right. because if he goes out and blows up a cafe, there is going to be hell to pay for more than one government official.

[lostfan]

I really hope you are right. because if he goes out and blows up a cafe, there is going to be hell to pay for more than one government official.

If we are talking Hizballah, and are going to assume this guy is a Hizballah member, that is probably not very likely to happen because:

a. They've never actually done anything like that in the United States, and even still, they only attack military and government targets e.g. the Marine barracks in Beiruit because they are seen as legitimate whereas randomly killing civilians does not make them look very good morally, and...

b. It's a strategic misplay on their part to do that and there is more to be lost than gained.

 

Now, that all may change... but that's my view of things currently.

[Texsox]

I really hope you are right. because if he goes out and blows up a cafe, there is going to be hell to pay for more than one government official.

We could run around and lock up everyone who disagrees with the government, but that seems like what we are fighting against.

 

How long where you msuggesting he be locked up for? Life? Twenty years?

[Texsox]

OK, let' see here. So many things in that post i want to get the straight.

1) if we are going to start arguing semantics and conjecture with every damn story that gets posted here, there will be no discussions at all. At some point, we have to, at least for discussions sake, take the story at its word.

 

2) The story said he was seen walking around with a gun. WHY the officers didn't initially approach him with their guns out, I have no idea. As for the reaction to him moving towards the consol, you must not have been pulled over in a long time, at least not bycops who didn't know you. You always keep your hands where the oficers can see them, ESPECIALLY if you are wearing camo face paint.

 

3) How much jail time I don't care. the fact he got NONE is what pissed me off.

 

4) Take your scenerio and put it about 10 years ago, and maybe throw in a few abortion clinic pamphlets and you would be dead wrong that no one would blink. Even if it happened today, if he openly supported abortion killers, the Pro-Choice people and NOW would be on this faster than Homer Simpson on a doughnut.

 

5) Semantics here again. It doesn't say if they ordered him out of the car before they grabbed his wrist. They grabbed it fearing he was reaching for a weapon. While holding his wrist, they noticed a weapon and then ordered him out, and when he refused, dragged him out.

 

Since he did NOT get jail time, I hope he gave up something good. But his medical career could be alot more difficult now. Assuming the school doesn't kick him out for this, just imagine him trying to get malpractice insurance with these charges on his records. That is one bill I wouldn't want to see. And with people googling doctors nowadays, I wonder how many times his name will pop up with this info when people are checking out the new doc in town! I hope this follows him around forever.

 

I am taking the story at it's word. He lowered his hands. Do you seriously keep your hands on the dash or raised when the cops pull you over? I would think resting your hands on your lap would be a normal movement. Why weren't the cops in a position to see his hands?

 

I don't see where they mention he was out of his vehicle. I read the article three times. They do mention carrying a weapon, which to mean means he was carrying it in his car, not physically carrying it. Like a trucker is carrying dynamite. You could be right, but again, taking the article word for word, I believe they did not know he possessed any weapons until they saw it in the car.

 

I read where law enforcement could not link him to any terrorist groups, but it seems you have.

 

Perhaps you can make a judgement by reading one newspaper article, but I refuse to second guess the judge who probably reviewed more material than what was reported here.

[EvilMonkey]

I am taking the story at it's word. He lowered his hands. Do you seriously keep your hands on the dash or raised when the cops pull you over? I would think resting your hands on your lap would be a normal movement. Why weren't the cops in a position to see his hands?

 

I don't see where they mention he was out of his vehicle. I read the article three times. They do mention carrying a weapon, which to mean means he was carrying it in his car, not physically carrying it. Like a trucker is carrying dynamite. You could be right, but again, taking the article word for word, I believe they did not know he possessed any weapons until they saw it in the car.

 

I read where law enforcement could not link him to any terrorist groups, but it seems you have.

 

Perhaps you can make a judgement by reading one newspaper article, but I refuse to second guess the judge who probably reviewed more material than what was reported here.

OK tex, lets take the story at it's word. " was observed carrying a loaded AK-47 semi-automatic assault rifle near the west side of the park" Not driving, carrying. "Zorkot was dressed in dark clothing and had his face painted black when officers located him on Sept. 8, 2007, inside his 2007 Ford Escape". Ok, now he is in his car. "Officers approached the vehicle, which proceeded to pull out of the parking space and head northbound toward the park's entrance" Ok, now he tried to get away. We don't know if he was actively running or not, but since the officers could tell his car was running before he took off, they were probably close by and easily within his sight. "Dearborn police were able to block the vehicle in before it was able to leave the park." Stoped him before he got away, good! "Zorkot opened the driver's side door, but remained inside the vehicle". OK, I don't know about down there, but up here, even for a traffic ticket, they tell you to stay in your car. not to open the door, not to get out, but stay in your car. "You guys are always harassing me.", he says. Ah, getting confrontational with police. Always a winning move. Especially when you are wearing camo face paint. Nothing too suspicious there. "During the confrontation, officers observed Zorkot lower his right hand toward the center console, which was out of view. According to police reports, officers feared Zorkot may have been reaching for a weapon and grabbed his left wrist while ordering him to exit the vehicle." A reasonable fear by the officer from a confrontational suspect who isn't behaving right. Notice the order to then exit the vehicle. "An officer at the scene observed the AK-47 in the vehicle's backseat, and alerted her fellow officers that the Dearborn resident was armed. Zorkot was then forcibly removed from the vehicle through the driver's side door — although he initially refused to let go of the door." With the suspect appearing to be dangerous, and an unsecured firearm there, officers did the correct thing in immobilizing him,making sure he could not use the gun or cause any harm to himself or others. He did not listen. "When he refused to release the door, officers struck Zorkot's arm once with a plastic flashlight, however, the Dearborn resident refused to let go." Stubborn, wasn't he? "A Taser was then deployed,......When Zorkot refused to comply with the officers' commands, he was stunned again and taken into custody". I kept expecting to see "Dont tase me, bro!". But sadly, no.

 

As for linking him to a terrorist group, it only says "he has not been identified ", not that they COULDN'T identify him as belonging to one. And does one have to belong to a group to be a terrorist? I missed that memo. Oh, and yes, when I am pulled over, I keep my hands in plain sight, and don't do anything they haven't told me to do. it has been a while since I have been stopped, thankfully.

[StrangeSox]

OK, let' see here. So many things in that post i want to get the straight.

1) if we are going to start arguing semantics and conjecture with every damn story that gets posted here, there will be no discussions at all. At some point, we have to, at least for discussions sake, take the story at its word.

2) The story said he was seen walking around with a gun. WHY the officers didn't initially approach him with their guns out, I have no idea. As for the reaction to him moving towards the consol, you must not have been pulled over in a long time, at least not bycops who didn't know you. You always keep your hands where the oficers can see them, ESPECIALLY if you are wearing camo face paint.

3) How much jail time I don't care. the fact he got NONE is what pissed me off.

 

4) Take your scenerio and put it about 10 years ago, and maybe throw in a few abortion clinic pamphlets and you would be dead wrong that no one would blink. Even if it happened today, if he openly supported abortion killers, the Pro-Choice people and NOW would be on this faster than Homer Simpson on a doughnut.

 

5) Semantics here again. It doesn't say if they ordered him out of the car before they grabbed his wrist. They grabbed it fearing he was reaching for a weapon. While holding his wrist, they noticed a weapon and then ordered him out, and when he refused, dragged him out.

 

Since he did NOT get jail time, I hope he gave up something good. But his medical career could be alot more difficult now. Assuming the school doesn't kick him out for this, just imagine him trying to get malpractice insurance with these charges on his records. That is one bill I wouldn't want to see. And with people googling doctors nowadays, I wonder how many times his name will pop up with this info when people are checking out the new doc in town! I hope this follows him around forever.

 

Based on the other facts in the story, it seems like the article was poorly written and that they were unaware that he was armed until they saw the gun in the back seat.

 

Why not find another article on the subject, or better yet, the actual court documents? Then we could know for sure.

Edited August 21, 2008 by StrangeSox

[Texsox]

Bias alert. Alpha, I didn't think I needed to mention this to you but, as a conservative gun owner, I known how the liberal press would like nothing better then to take away our weapons. So they write horribly biased articles that make all gun owners out to be some wack jobs. I'm glad we had a judge up there protecting gun owners. Just read American Rifleman magazine. Month after month stories of good, honest people getting screwed over my cops and judges.

 

If all the judge had was this article, then I agree with you Alpha, the sentence was too light. Thankfully, we have a system where people have their day in court. Based on everything else the Judge heard, this is what he decided.

 

When I took my carry training, they called it carrying when ever we were transporting the weapon by any means. In our vehicles, in a back pack, in a panniers while biking, in a waterproof case while boating etc. But I agree that the most direct meaning would be physically out and carrying. I believe he would have been charged with carrying even with it in the back seat and I am fairly certain you would have supported the definition of carrying in that case.

 

So let's go with your scenario, they knew he was armed, but approached as if he wasn't? However, that gives probable cause for pulling him over. It just seems strange they go after him for carrying a loaded (how did they know at the time it was loaded? Good assumption though) weapon. Then when they saw the weapon say "he's armed". I also do not understand how he knew if his hands were or were not out of sight. There were at least two officers circling his car. Should he ask, can you see my hands? Again, I've rested my hands on my lap when being pulled over and never have been dragged from my car. And, laughingly, once with my face painted from a paintball match.

 

Bottom line, I don't think there is enough info to pass judgment on the sentence. You do. That's cool.

[mr_genius]

in a waterproof case while boating etc.

 

swiftboating? for shame