Whitewashed in '05 Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 QUOTE (WCSox @ Aug 23, 2008 -> 12:11 PM) Yeah, the Sox sure looked great against crappy teams like the A's, Royals, and Mariners. But they need to play at least .500 ball against the good teams. And their bullpen is an absolute mess right now. They need to step up and make a statement against the Rays and Red Sox. I agree, and they have today and tomorrow vs the Rays to prove they can beat them. We took 2/4 from the red sox and should have taken 3 with Danks' performance. Carassco has been a savior in a way. He's been doing really good. Dotel had a bad game, but I would throw him out there today if we needed him again (not just because we don't have many other options). Jenks is fine. I understand our bullpen has its problems, but there isn't one playoff team that's perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 QUOTE (WCSox @ Aug 23, 2008 -> 12:59 PM) Dotel tops out in the low 90's and doesn't really have an effective "out" pitch (e.g., Hoffman's changeup, K-Rod's breaking ball, etc.). Outside of the good movement on his two-seamer, I consider his stuff pretty average. Frankly, I'm amazed that he's able to rack up so many strikeouts. But I agree that location is a big problem for him. And that really becomes magnified when you don't have an arsenal like Jenks or Linebrink. Dotel has absolutely filthy, nasty stuff. That was one of the first things coming out of ST this year from the hitters and AJ, was just how wicked Dotel was. To say anything else is just inaccurate. His one weakness is his fastball seems to stay too straight at times, so if a hitter can catch up with it, it tends to go a long way... Anyways, this thread is pretty nasty...we can't win every game, folks. And neither can the Twins. We just need to keep playing good ball, and we'll be there in the postseason. Mark my words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 QUOTE (Whitewashed in '05 @ Aug 23, 2008 -> 10:03 AM) Carassco has been a savior in a way. He's been doing really good. Dotel had a bad game, Dotel has had several bad games and his numbers have been on the decline since May. That's not to say that he's not effective at times and a solid pitcher overall, but he's not a setup man. The Sox desperately need Linebrink back. but I would throw him out there today if we needed him again (not just because we don't have many other options). Jenks is fine. I understand our bullpen has its problems, but there isn't one playoff team that's perfect. Unfortunately for us, there are plenty of playoff teams with more than one healthy, reliable relief pitcher. As was shown last night, the Sox aren't going to mash their way through the playoffs. Their starting pitching is fine, but they really need reliable middle relief. Without it, they're not going to win tight games in October. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 23, 2008 -> 10:18 AM) Dotel has absolutely filthy, nasty stuff. That was one of the first things coming out of ST this year from the hitters and AJ, was just how wicked Dotel was. To say anything else is just inaccurate. K-Rod has "absolutely filthy, nasty stuff." From what I can tell, Dotel has a nice two-seamer and that's about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 QUOTE (WCSox @ Aug 23, 2008 -> 01:21 PM) K-Rod has "absolutely filthy, nasty stuff." From what I can tell, Dotel has a nice two-seamer and that's about it. Well, no offense, sir, but "from what 'you' can tell" is not accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 23, 2008 -> 11:24 AM) Well, no offense, sir, but "from what 'you' can tell" is not accurate. Tell me which of Dotel's pitches qualify as "absolutely filty, nasty stuff." I see a really nice two-seamer, but no effective changeup or breaking ball. Seriously, are you saying that Dotel's stuff is on the level of Jenks, K-Rod, or Nathan? I hope not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 (edited) QUOTE (WCSox @ Aug 23, 2008 -> 12:29 PM) Tell me which of Dotel's pitches qualify as "absolutely filty, nasty stuff." I see a really nice two-seamer, but no effective changeup or breaking ball. Seriously, are you saying that Dotel's stuff is on the level of Jenks, K-Rod, or Nathan? I hope not. There are more pitchers in the major leagues that have "absolutely filthy, nasty" stuff than Jenks, KRod, or Nathan. From what I have read, Dotel's best pitch may actually be his slider... Here is a scouting report: "Has a simply electric arm. Can dominate hitters who are unfamiliar with him with consistent upper-90s heat and a good slider. Has shown the ability to excel in a variety of roles." So I'll just go with that....has an "electric arm" and can "dominate." It's not worth it for me to argue the semantics with you. But the bottom line is Dotel's problem is not an absence of stuff, as was stated earlier. Edited August 23, 2008 by iamshack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 (edited) QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 23, 2008 -> 11:36 AM) There are more pitchers in the major leagues that have "absolutely filthy, nasty" stuff than Jenks, KRod, or Nathan. From what I have read, Dotel's best pitch may actually be his slider... Here is a scouting report: "Has a simply electric arm. Can dominate hitters who are unfamiliar with him with consistent upper-90s heat and a good slider. Has shown the ability to excel in a variety of roles." So I'll just go with that....has an "electric arm." It's not worth it for me to argue the semantics with you. But the bottom line is Dotel's problem is not an absence of stuff, as was stated earlier. That scouting report is at least four or five years old, as Dotel hasn't gotten anywhere near the mid-90's (much less the UPPER-90s's) since the Tommy John surgery. He was dominant in Houston before the surgery and his ability to throw that hard was a major factor. I don't consider his current 90-92 mph fastball indicative of an "electric arm." Agreed that his slider is pretty decent, and that he has good overall lateral movement on his pitches. But he doesn't throw that hard and doesn't have a good offspeed pitch that he can consistently throw for strikes. Dotel reminds me a lot of Garland: Decent fastball and good movement, but lacking an offspeed pitch to keep hitters off balance. If his command is there, he can be dominant. If it's not, he'll get rocked. And I'd save the "absolutely filty, nasty stuff" label for pitchers who actually deserve it. Edited August 23, 2008 by WCSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Dotel has absolutely filthy, nasty stuff. That was one of the first things coming out of ST this year from the hitters and AJ, was just how wicked Dotel was. To say anything else is just inaccurate I'll say that on some nights that filthy nasty stuff gets rocked all over the ballpark. I love seeing his ERA of INF on my fantasy team on more than one occasion (pardon the fantasy reference). I have seen nights on TV where he has been unhittable. But too many nights he's meat. I agree the most recent acquistion from the Royals is a bust. Stop pitching him. Is his name Ramirez?? Just say no to him, Oz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wise Master Buehrle Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Dotel has an explosive fastball. That's his out pitch. That's what he usually throws. For some reason his breaking balls just hang over the plate saying HIT ME, HIT ME... he usually gets in trouble when he's throwing breaking balls... I think last night he didn't have that explosive fastball that literally rises. Instead, he had a straight, hittable fastball. It's up to the managers to notice when a guy just doesn't have his stuff one night and get someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 23, 2008 -> 01:24 PM) Well, no offense, sir, but "from what 'you' can tell" is not accurate. Do you get to watch the games at all? I'm not trying to mock you or anything, but I see you're from Vegas. Dotel throws a fastball. That is it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Aug 23, 2008 -> 12:02 PM) Do you get to watch the games at all? I'm not trying to mock you or anything, but I see you're from Vegas. Dotel throws a fastball. That is it. Yeah, I'm not saying that Dotel sucks or anything, but it's pretty laughable to say that he has awesome stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 When you strike out over 13 guys per 9 innings, your "stuff" is pretty good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 QUOTE (3E8 @ Aug 23, 2008 -> 02:11 PM) When you strike out over 13 guys per 9 innings, your "stuff" is pretty good And when you give up 10 homers in just 55 IP, and are sporting a 3.88 ERA as a reliever, you're not getting guys out by dominating them in the strike zone. There's nothing wrong with getting hitters out by getting them to chase bad pitches, but you need to be able to pitch to contact when they're taking those two-seamers off the inside corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 It's up to the managers to notice when a guy just doesn't have his stuff one night and get someone else. Dotel is such Jeckyll and Hyde I actually was wondering if somehow you could tell which Dotel you'll get watching him warm up. My guess is you cannot tell. I mean how is Oz supposed to tell if he doesn't have his stuff?? After one pitch in the game? One batter? I guess he could bring in Dotel and if the first runner gets on base yank him, but that's generally not the way it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro1983hat Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Poor Bobby Jenks. All these games could have got to him in a save situation. Our set up men have KILLED us this year. And now, there's not a thing that can be done about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Joe Morgan should be fired today. Somebody should play him the replay of what he said about our bullpen and simply fire him. How could he be so dumb?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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