Gustav and the GOP convention

[EvilMonkey]

There is a whole lot of truth in that statement. Unfortunately, once the cat is out of the bag, it's tough to put it back in. And while not exactly concerning New Orleans, there are a lot of Americans living in areas that are potentially toast in the event of natural disasters. Sides and bases of mudslide prone hills, relying on levees and dams, etc. We want to live near nature which combined with humans, but especially Americans, having the hubris to think we can tame nature, leads to disasters.

Have all the hubris you want, just don't expect to government (ie our tax dollars) to bail your ass out.

[Texsox]

Have all the hubris you want, just don't expect to government (ie our tax dollars) to bail your ass out.

That depends on how you define "bailing your ass out". Do you mean spending billions on rebuilding roads, bridges, public safety buildings (police, fire, hospitals), schools, libraries, parks, utilities, and everything else the government is responsible for? Do you mean the hundreds of millions in direct aid that assures there are property tax owners actually returning and getting back on the tax rolls? Do you mean the government buying high risk land from the property owners and stopping development?

 

As I mentioned before, once we started down this path, it is very difficult to get off it.

[Balta1701]

Here's the "uncompassionate" person who comes along and says, you built a f***ing city 30 feet below sea level and then wonder why it floods when a hurricane comes? New Orleans shouldn't even BE THERE anymore, but whatever.

Is it worth noting that a big part of the reason why New Orleans now sits 30 feet below sea level is the way we've treated the environment in that area? You have a combination of rising sea levels thanks to the changing climate and rapidly subsiding land due to the fact that sediment is no longer being deposited on the site of the city.

 

Let me fire back another uncompassionate reply. The Mississippi river and its tributaries have now had 2 separate 500 year flood events within the space of 2 decades. This strongly suggests that what we thought was a 500 year event no longer is a 500 year event, but is more like a 20 year event, and we should really, really be scared of what a 500 year event can do in the new climate environment. Why exactly aren't we evacuating the devastated cities along those rivers in Iowa?

[whitesoxfan101]

Here's the "uncompassionate" person who comes along and says, you built a f***ing city 30 feet below sea level and then wonder why it floods when a hurricane comes? New Orleans shouldn't even BE THERE anymore, but whatever.

 

Well this point certainly holds validity to it, but is it really practical to just make everybody leave after New Orleans grew into a major city hundreds of years ago and has maintained it's status? I would NEVER live anywhere near there after seeing the affect Katrina had on the city, in large part because of it's geography, but that's just me. I'm not sure what the French Mississppi Company was thinking when they founded the place though, maybe water and sea level were foreign terms to those folks, although it obviously wasn't as bad in the 1700's as it is now with the literally sinking land they have there.

Edited August 28, 2008 by whitesoxfan101

[Balta1701]

Bit of an aside, but it sure looks like Northern Florida, the same areas flooded by Fay, are in a shooting gallery next week as well from Hanna.

 

Quick hypothetical. Let's say we've got Gustav hitting NOLA, we've got Hanna hitting Florida, and we've got the RNC all at the same time. Where does CNN send Anderson Cooper?

[NorthSideSox72]

Well this point certainly holds validity to it, but is it really practical to just make everybody leave after New Orleans grew into a major city hundreds of years ago and has maintained it's status? I would NEVER live anywhere near there after seeing the affect Katrina had on the city, in large part because of it's geography, but that's just me. I'm not sure what the French Mississppi Company was thinking when they founded the place though, maybe water and sea level were foreign terms to those folks, although it obviously wasn't as bad in the 1700's as it is now with the literally sinking land they have there.

There was a major opportunity after Katrina - like a Chicago fire type opportunity. A chance to NOT rebuild in the lowlying areas, condense the city rebuild into more protectable areas, and have a renaissance in NO. Unfortunately, the political will was not there to do that, so we're back to square 1.

 

[Balta1701]

There was a major opportunity after Katrina - like a Chicago fire type opportunity. A chance to NOT rebuild in the lowlying areas, condense the city rebuild into more protectable areas, and have a renaissance in NO. Unfortunately, the political will was not there to do that, so we're back to square 1.

Don't worry. Thanks to climate change, I somehow doubt that Katrina will be your last chance to do that if that's what you want to do.

[Balta1701]

FWIW, it's seems Fox News is reporting this mornin' that the President's schedule for Monday is now considered up in the air, as is his presence at the convention at all, depending on what the storm decides to do. Video hosted @ this left-leaning blog.

[HuskyCaucasian]

FWIW, it's seems Fox News is reporting this mornin' that the President's schedule for Monday is now considered up in the air, as is his presence at the convention at all, depending on what the storm decides to do. Video hosted @ this left-leaning blog.

VERY smart on his part and heck... John McCain I bet would like to not see him in the Twin Cities as well.

[whitesoxfan101]

Don't worry. Thanks to climate change, I somehow doubt that Katrina will be your last chance to do that if that's what you want to do.

 

With or without climate change as a point of reference, New Orleans had been very hurricane fortunate in the years before Katrina. So even people who think that climate change either doesn't affect hurricanes or is a myth altogether should realize that New Orleans is due for a couple more hurricanes of significance in the near future. And of course if you believe climate change is not only really (not a stretch), but affects hurricanes (much more debatable), it could be more than a couple.

Edited August 28, 2008 by whitesoxfan101

[FlaSoxxJim]

With or without climate change as a point of reference, New Orleans had been very hurricane fortunate in the years before Katrina. So even people who think that climate change either doesn't affect hurricanes or is a myth altogether should realize that New Orleans is due for a couple more hurricanes of significance in the near future. And of course if you believe climate change is not only really (not a stretch), but affects hurricanes (much more debatable), it could be more than a couple.

 

It's not even particularly debatable that changing climate (in this case, warming tropical waters) affects hurricanes. Warm tropical waters are the driving force behind hurricanes.

 

What remains debatable - in a smoke and mirrors sort of way - is whether or not any single storm was stronger or any single season more active as a result of climate change. It's analogous to the Big Tobacco legal argument that even though there is a highly significant statistical population-wide correlation between smoking and the incidence of cancer, it is very difficult to demonstrate that a specific person's smoking was the cause of that person's illness.

 

[Balta1701]

It's not even particularly debatable that changing climate (in this case, warming tropical waters) affects hurricanes. Warm tropical waters are the driving force behind hurricanes.

 

What remains debatable - in a smoke and mirrors sort of way - is whether or not any single storm was stronger or any single season more active as a result of climate change. It's analogous to the Big Tobacco legal argument that even though there is a highly significant statistical population-wide correlation between smoking and the incidence of cancer, it is very difficult to demonstrate that a specific person's smoking was the cause of that person's illness.

You both are missing one key point here. Even disregarding all the possible impacts that changing the climate has on hurricane numbers and intensity...climate change has another impact that is an even greater danger to NOLA, and to every other coastal city in the world...sea level.

 

You raise sea level by another 2, 3, 5 meters in the next 50 years or so, or get really unlucky and have one of those ice caps catastrophically go, and suddenly New Orleans goes from being 30 feet below sea level to 50 feet below sea level, and a 5 foot storm surge goes from being no threat to the levee system to being a major threat to overtop them. Sea level goes up a bit more and it further swamps the wetlands that used to be the natural storm surge barrier.

[HuskyCaucasian]

Rove On Hurricanes In August: "The Republicans Can't Seem To Get A Break"

 

"The Republicans can't seem to get a break when it comes to August and when it comes to the weather," said Rove.

 

Yea Carl. Nice analysis. Blame your administrations pathetic response to Katrina on... well... Katrina. Not your fault at all!

[kapkomet]

Rove On Hurricanes In August: "The Republicans Can't Seem To Get A Break"

 

"The Republicans can't seem to get a break when it comes to August and when it comes to the weather," said Rove.

 

Yea Carl. Nice analysis. Blame your administrations pathetic response to Katrina on... well... Katrina. Not your fault at all!

 

Right, that's what he was saying, and I'm sure it's all not in context or anything.

 

[Balta1701]

 

Right, that's what he was saying, and I'm sure it's all not in context or anything.

If the Dems had this sort of run of weather related luck, wouldn't there be more than a few folks out there saying how those godless dems had pissed off a deity or two?

[kapkomet]

If the Dems had this sort of run of weather related luck, wouldn't there be more than a few folks out there saying how those godless dems had pissed off a deity or two?

Probably.

 

[DukeNukeEm]

If the Dems had this sort of run of weather related luck, wouldn't there be more than a few folks out there saying how those godless dems had pissed off a deity or two?

Oh they actually were saying that when that Tornado missed Denver by like 175 miles.

[HuskyCaucasian]

GOP Ponders Convention Delay as Gustav Nears Gulf Coast

Republican officials said yesterday that they are considering delaying the start of the GOP convention in Minneapolis because of Tropical Storm Gustav, which is on track to hit the Gulf Coast, and possibly New Orleans, as a full-force hurricane early next week.

 

Senior Republicans said the images of political celebration in Minneapolis while thousands of Americans flee a hurricane could be disastrous. "Senator McCain has always been sensitive to national crisis," said McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds, noting that McCain postponed announcing his presidential candidacy in 2000 because of war in the Balkans. "We are monitoring the situation very closely."

 

Staging a convention during a major natural disaster would be a public relations challenge for either political party. But GOP officials say the damage could be especially heavy for Republicans, whose reputation was tarred by the Bush administration's bungling of Katrina and its aftermath.

 

Good Call

[Texsox]

Is there a legal point where they have to hold the convention? It would seem that holding off benefits McCain (as well as being the right thing to do). That post convention bump is always nice and getting it later would seem pretty damn nice.

 

I'd love to see candidates and their parties tripping over each other helping.

[kapkomet]

I was thinking the same thing, but for different reasons. They rent those buildings out so far in advance, and the hotels, etc. That's a logistical nightmare if they have to cancel and reschedule.

[Texsox]

I was thinking the same thing, but for different reasons. They rent those buildings out so far in advance, and the hotels, etc. That's a logistical nightmare if they have to cancel and reschedule.

 

Good point, plus the prep work is crazy. Remember when the Astros had a 32 day road trip when the Astrodome was used for a convention?

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Good point, plus the prep work is crazy. Remember when the Astros had a 32 day road trip when the Astrodome was used for a convention?

 

 

Too bad they cant rent out the Metrodome longer and tell the Twins they're SOL

[Balta1701]

Is there a legal point where they have to hold the convention? It would seem that holding off benefits McCain (as well as being the right thing to do). That post convention bump is always nice and getting it later would seem pretty damn nice.

 

I'd love to see candidates and their parties tripping over each other helping.

Actually I think the answer is "Yes". Many states have legal limits as to exactly when your nominating convention has to be held in order for you to get on the ballot. They're easily skirted, but Bush ran in to a bit of trouble with that in 04.

[Balta1701]

Oh crap...Hannah has shifted her track south and is now aiming right around the southern tip of Florida. That gets an "Oh crap" because the ones that hit the Southern tip of florida or pass through the straits there tend to not lose very much strength or break up very much, and then they wind up slamming in to the gulf coast somewhere a few days later. That's the path Katrina and Rita took, that's the path that Andrew took.

[HuskyCaucasian]

PS: I suggest discussing the general Katrina impact here and leave this thread to strictly the "political" side of the story.