So... what are our options?

[greg775]

I'd love for us to make the World Series then have KW make some major moves in an attempt to keep it going for years on down the line.

[RockRaines]

I am just thinking out loud, but am I being captain obvious by saying that there is NO WAY that the White Sox go into 2009 so heavily tilted toward the all or none HR style that gets extinguished against the Dice-K's and Cliff Lee's of MLB?

So you want a lineup that doesnt occasionally get shut down by the best pitchers in the league? Hmmm, how can we build a team that goes against the very statistics that make baseball go?

[southsideirish71]

I would like a few more line drive types to sprinkle around the power core. Diversity in our lineup would make this offense a lot better, and a lot harder to shutout. You need the power core, but you should have a supporting cast that knows how to make contact, drive the ball the other way and get on base. The problem with our offense, is we have guys outside of the 3-4-5 core who are all or nothing players. For this years team. I would rather have Anderson catching everything in CF and not hitting than a old RF playing CF, and Swish who hasn't clicked all year strolling out there. Griffey was a move for a moves sake. He provides nothing but a name. For me the solution with our personnel is as follows.

 

Move Alexei to the 2nd hitter.

Move AJ to 6th behind Paulie.

Move Anderson into the starting CF job. He cant hit but neither can the other two.

Griffey becomes backup DH and pinch hitter.

Swish starts to rotate to give guys rest down the stretch. One day he plays 1st, the next day he plays RF, etc.

Move Crede to the bench. I hate Uribe's play and all, but for the love of god he has outplayed Crede at that position. Put him back.

 

Now to me thats a better team. You have defense up the middle. You have added speed up at the top, you have a lefty contact hitter to hit behind Konerko in an RBI position. And you have taken out Crede who cant hit.

[lostfan]

Every team is going to have holes going into the off-season, and I'm actually happy those are ours. In reality, those 3 are probably the easiest to fill.

Especially 5th starter. They're a dime a dozen. The hard ones to find are the 1-2-3 spots.

[lostfan]

Move Alexei to the 2nd hitter.

Move AJ to 6th behind Paulie.

People keep saying this, but I don't get the point of it. The main gripe people have with AJ being in the 2 spot is his low OBP. So why Alexei?

AJ's OBP: .322

Alexei's OBP: .323

 

AJ's OPS: .757

Alexei's OPS: .810

 

So Alexei slugs higher and that's really it, if you're trying to improve OBP you do it, but by a whopping 1 point as of now. What's swapping them out going to accomplish? Maybe one day Alexei will start drawing more walks, but that's just not the kind of player he is.

[southsideirish71]

People keep saying this, but I don't get the point of it. The main gripe people have with AJ being in the 2 spot is his low OBP. So why Alexei?

AJ's OBP: .322

Alexei's OBP: .323

 

AJ's OPS: .757

Alexei's OPS: .810

 

So Alexei slugs higher and that's really it, if you're trying to improve OBP you do it, but by a whopping 1 point as of now. What's swapping them out going to accomplish? Maybe one day Alexei will start drawing more walks, but that's just not the kind of player he is.

 

The OBP is a wash, but his speed and the ability to bunt make him more valuable in the 2nd position than AJ. I agree its not a perfect solution. But this lineup needs a change.

[lostfan]

The OBP is a wash, but his speed and the ability to bunt make him more valuable in the 2nd position than AJ. I agree its not a perfect solution. But this lineup needs a change.

Personally I would rather see his slugging utilized in the lineup after guys like Thome and Konerko who get on base (when Paulie doesn't suck)

 

Slugging + high OBP = reliable stream of runs

Edited September 2, 2008 by lostfan

[Melissa1334]

buehrle and vazquez.

[NCsoxfan]

My worry is that without trading players, there are limited positions on our team to change to more of a line-drive style.

 

The only areas we could change would be 2B/SS (Cabrera out), 3B, and CF... While we might all want to see a different style offense, how likely is it that next year will be any different?

[lostfan]

My worry is that without trading players, there are limited positions on our team to change to more of a line-drive style.

 

The only areas we could change would be 2B/SS (Cabrera out), 3B, and CF... While we might all want to see a different style offense, how likely is it that next year will be any different?

We don't need a different style offense. We need a productive top of the order, and we can't have black holes like Crede has been lately, Konerko for most of the year until a month ago, or Uribe a lot of the time when he's not on one of his streaks. Our 3-4-5 is just as it should be and trading away the power production from there would be insanity. When the 6 and 7 are mashing too, there's nothing wrong with that either.

 

Bottom line... have a true leadoff hitter who gets on base and can run, and a true #2 hitter who can handle the bat and has a decent OBP, instead of the stopgaps we have there now, and this offense is a juggernaut. It doesn't need a fundamental change.

[LVSoxFan]

It's not misguided people, it's just LVsox looking for a chance to bash Thome and home runs. Only a matter of time before we get the "Man, I miss that guy [Rowand]" post.

 

Boo hoo. I never even mentioned his name and here you are knee-jerking. Is PK Thome? Is Griffey Thome?

 

I don't miss Rowand FWIW since Swish got here although his batting has sucked too. And he's better at 1b.

 

I also can only roll my eyes at people who insist that smallball had no part in 2005 and it was HRs that made that season.

 

Actually it was BOTH except now we have one but not the other. Amazingly some here are fine with a one-dimensional offense. Which sure has paid off in recent years.

 

Meanwhile, people keep comparing Tampa to the 05 Sox, and look where they are.

Edited September 2, 2008 by LVSoxFan

[NCsoxfan]

We don't need a different style offense. We need a productive top of the order, and we can't have black holes like Crede has been lately, Konerko for most of the year until a month ago, or Uribe a lot of the time when he's not on one of his streaks. Our 3-4-5 is just as it should be and trading away the power production from there would be insanity. When the 6 and 7 are mashing too, there's nothing wrong with that either.

 

Bottom line... have a true leadoff hitter who gets on base and can run, and a true #2 hitter who can handle the bat and has a decent OBP, instead of the stopgaps we have there now, and this offense is a juggernaut. It doesn't need a fundamental change.

 

We are not 8th in the AL in Hits and OBP because of our #1 and #2 hitters. If you added the incremental hits and OBP between our #1 & #2 hitters and the best 1-2 pair, it would NOT boost us up that far.

 

It is MORE than just 1 and 2. I think we do need to alter the offense...

[Flash Tizzle]

So if they want Fields/Broadway for Beltre, don't you think there's 5 other teams that will beat that package? They asked for Slowey, Blackburn, or Perkins from the Twins, along with another prospect. Their asking price will drop a little in the offseason, even though Beltre's on quite the tear right now (raising his value).

If I were Seattle I'd say, at the minimum, any package should be worth the equivalent of a 1st rounder and a supplimental 1st round draft choice. This is basically what they'd have if they held onto him (assuming whichever teams picks him up doesn't have their 1st pick protected).

 

It'd take Poreda + someone else. Likely more if we're competing with other teams. We can't afford this. There needs to be some pitcher within the minors with a ceiling higher than 5th/6th starter.

[lostfan]

We are not 8th in the AL in Hits and OBP because of our #1 and #2 hitters. If you added the incremental hits and OBP between our #1 & #2 hitters and the best 1-2 pair, it would NOT boost us up that far.

 

It is MORE than just 1 and 2. I think we do need to alter the offense...

You're kind of selectively citing stats here. The offense is still one of the more productive in the AL and is at or near the top in a lot of other significant categories. It's not broken, it's just inconsistent because:

-It has trouble scoring runs any other way than HRs

-There are certain players ridiculously underperforming for long stretches

-They get owned against soft-tossing lefties

 

The lineup needs balance, discipline, and a proper top of the order, it does NOT need to just throw away HRs for the sake of doint it. There is nothing wrong with having an ability to mash out HRs if the lineup is balanced.

[NCsoxfan]

Its not that I want to throw away HR's for the sake of it. I think b/c we have so many HR hitters, we are prone to the very things we are talking about...

 

In a way (and to a point), the things we are discussing are mutually exclusive. Am I wrong?

[lostfan]

Its not that I want to throw away HR's for the sake of it. I think b/c we have so many HR hitters, we are prone to the very things we are talking about...

 

In a way (and to a point), the things we are discussing are mutually exclusive. Am I wrong?

Good offensive players are going to hit home runs, so there is no way to avoid it unless you want to decrease the quality of players in the second half of your lineup. If you want a Granderson/Sizemore type of player that's a lot easier said than done (and even they hit a fair # of homers). I think it has to do more with the plate approach than anything. Only CQ and Dye seem to have any hitting versatility IMO.

[Balta1701]

People keep saying this, but I don't get the point of it. The main gripe people have with AJ being in the 2 spot is his low OBP. So why Alexei?

AJ's OBP: .322

Alexei's OBP: .323

 

AJ's OPS: .757

Alexei's OPS: .810

 

So Alexei slugs higher and that's really it, if you're trying to improve OBP you do it, but by a whopping 1 point as of now. What's swapping them out going to accomplish? Maybe one day Alexei will start drawing more walks, but that's just not the kind of player he is.

However...Alexei's OBP since he really became a full time player and started learning how to hit the league (I'm using since May 15, that's right around the day Uribe got hurt and right around the time he bottomed out...)

 

.341

(With a .863 OPS in there and a .326 batting average).

 

When you start talking about differences of a few hundreths of a point in OBP, then that first month where Alexei wasn't ready and wasn't playing full time are going to weigh down his numbers. I think the post May 15th numbers are much more realistic for what we'd expect him to do right now.

[NCsoxfan]

Good offensive players are going to hit home runs, so there is no way to avoid it unless you want to decrease the quality of players in the second half of your lineup. If you want a Granderson/Sizemore type of player that's a lot easier said than done (and even they hit a fair # of homers). I think it has to do more with the plate approach than anything. Only CQ and Dye seem to have any hitting versatility IMO.

 

I agree. You don't think Ramirez has hitting versatility? While he never walks, he hits a good amount of line drives and hits the opposite way...

[lostfan]

I agree. You don't think Ramirez has hitting versatility? While he never walks, he hits a good amount of line drives and hits the opposite way...

I would feel better about it if he would draw more walks, his OBP is driven by batting average. He's like AJ with more contact ability, but I feel like his OBP will be too volatile without the walks.

 

I just would rather see him driving in runs with his big hits than trying to set the table.

Edited September 2, 2008 by lostfan

[elrockinMT]

Whatever some think we are still a first place club. It would be nice to have someone in the lead off spot that is actually a lead off hitter. Cabrera has performed decently, but is not a true lead off type. I see him performing better in the #2 hole. He also shows some speed, but a real speed demon would be nice. We need more consistent starting pitching and a better performing bullpen. We saw both of those at times. I just have to wonder how good we would be if Konerko and Thome hit for a higher average; Konerko for more homers; Swisher for more average; Crede not being injured; better defense? All in all we did ok this year and the last 20 or so games will really be a knock down drag out affair.

[witesoxfan]

Welcome to your 2004 White Sox, as I've been saying all year. That team, like this one, was a HR-dependent, feast or famine team with zero speed and a revolving door 5th starter.

 

So we got rid of big bats Magglio and Lee and basically built our version of the Twins. And bang: we win the World Series. So, if it aint broke, fix it, right?

 

Yet here we are three years later and its 2004 all over again.

 

Our big fix-it trade made no sense whatsoever unless he was literally brought in because Paulie and Swisher weren't hitting.

 

What can we do? Start over next season. Get back to pitching + defense and the ability to play small ball to compliment our already there slugging ability.

 

Get a real leadoff hitter. No more experiments. Just say no to any more 2004 lineups.

 

I didn't read any lower and Tony has destroyed the thread to this point...top of the order hitter, maybe two of them, and upgrade the pitching again.

 

Oh, and I'm glad you're not in the front office. Pitching in 2005 and nothing else. That offense was absolutely f***ing horrendous and the only thing it was able to do was scratch out a run here and there. If you coupled that offense with the 2004 or 2006 pitching, you were talking about a 72 win team (you know, kind of like 2007).

[Milkman delivers]

Exactly. Ram is a wild card for next year IMO. He has no other way to get on base other than with his bat. At some point, some of the balls he puts into play are going to start finding gloves. It's just bound to happen. I'm not saying he has been lucky, or he is a bad hitter, because he isn't either of those, but he certainly isn't a sure bet for next year. If someone told me Lexi was going to bat .245 next season, I would be upset, but not surprised. Same reaction if someone told me he was going to hit .320.

 

You'd be upset if Ramirez hit .320 next year?

[caulfield12]

I don't think Chavez is going to be the answer, because when's the last time you ever saw BB dump a player and eat his salary at the same time? Almost never. Not that I can think of.

 

I think Blalock is more likely, for a number of reasons. Younger. Not as expensive. Downside/upside risk. I look at Chavez much like many Sox fans looked at Thome coming into 2006, a huge, huge risk. In Thome's case, it has actually worked out fairly well for the Sox, all things considered.

 

Ramirez isn't ready to be a number 2 hitter, yet.

 

If you look back at 2005, we did have a significantly higher number of sacrifice bunts, taken pitches, balls hit to the opposite field to advance runners...we just played more fundamentally sound baseball, and a huge and underappreciated part of this is due to Iguchi's baseball acumen.

 

There aren't very many players on this team that look to advance runners, especially the last week or so. Almost all of our hitters are power hitters (or see themselves in this light), which is where the whole problem of a power-oriented team spreads like a virus.

 

Even players like Uribe, Anderson, AJ and Cabrera are falling into ruts. I think the 2005 teams, players knew their roles and executed at about an 80-90% success rate. On this roster, obviously Dye, Quentin and Thome are power hitters and aren't going to be laying down bunts.

 

That leaves Konerko/Griffey, Swisher, 3B (Crede/Uribe), AJ, Cabrera and Ramirez.

 

I think Ramirez has done everything that can be expected for a rookie...and he's probably the smartest baseball player on this team. AJ has had a typical AJ season, he's definitely not a prototypical 2 hitter, which is where Cabrera should be.

 

So really, it comes down to Swisher, Konerko, Crede/Uribe (mostly Crede) and Cabrera either being injured or not really playing up to their potential. The problem is that Konerko will never be a "small ball" player, but Swisher/Konerko/Uribe/Crede/Cabrera have to do a much better job of execution and fundamental "smart" baseball in order for this team to be great.

 

One thing I didn't see coming was the complete erosion of the defense, which was middle-of-the-pack the first half of the season. Crede has been, in all honesty, TERRIBLE. We had yet another situation today where we should have turned the double play (Dotel was late covering) and that ended up in the floodgates opening. But Cabrera has been below-average, all things considered, and Fields promises more of the same. Swisher is great at 1B but below-average in CF. Konerko is average at 1B. The only above average fielder on the team right now is Alexei Ramirez, throwing out the errors and just going by "qualitative" observation.

 

And now Danks seems like he's reached the end of his rope this season, maybe one month later than 2007. I really feel the White Sox chances slipping each and every game, but I suppose anything is possible. We can say that Minnesota has given us life over and over again, and Minnesota can say the same thing about the White Sox over the last week or so. Unfortunately, their road trip will end up with the Sox having nothing like a 3-4 game lead that many were projecting. OTOH, we've been so cold recently the season will either end like 03/04/06 or we'll pull out of it in the end like 2005, although count me a skeptic on that one.

Edited September 3, 2008 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

Thome wasn't near the risk Chavez is. Thome was hurt one year, had been very productive outside of his injury plagued year for several before, and he was going to be asked to sit on his ass and hit the ball a long ways. Chavez has been hurt, his production has taken a dive because he's been hurt a lot, and he is expected to play 3B. I think the Sox have seen what back injuries do to 3Bman, and I think that's something Williams has to consider now.

 

I still say Beltre makes the absolute most sense if he's made available for a relatively decent price and I will continue to say it until he is dealt or the White Sox make a move for a 3Bman.

[Kalapse]

I just love Beltre's durability. Having a 3B capable of playing everyday would be a welcomed change.