Anyone else hate our offseason moves?

[Balta1701]

I'd much rather have him than a team full of PK's and JD's who sit on the bench and read books in between innings.

Was I the only one who saw JD being the lead cheerleader the last time he had a game off, Sunday IIRC?

[Paulie4Pres]

The only way OC brings us two draft picks, is if the White Sox offer him 8+mil next year... if I'm not mistaken. You guys really think that's going to happen? I don't. So he's basically worthless to us. Not disappointed in him? lol You guys don't watch many games, do you? Gold glove caliber my ass. He's got a noodle arm, he doesn't get in front of the ball, he is always taking the round about way to grounders, and he has cost us a LOT of games by not making the play when he needed to. He should probably have anywhere from 5-10 more errors than he's been given credit for. I imagine that's because he's OC, and they don't want to have to deal with him calling them up after every error to argue it.(that just screams selfish) He's playing like a player that is just worried about his statistics, and not what he is contributing to this team winning. His defense has been nothing even CLOSE to what it was touted to be. Highly overrated. As I said, give me Juan Uribe at SS every day. I'd be more than happy with that. At least we knew what to expect day in and day out. A very streaky hitter, with a cannon for an arm, that makes the big plays on defense. Have you even watched the games he's played this year at 3B and SS? He's been pretty excellent.

 

We are in MUCH better shape right now with Garland on this team, instead of OC. At least then, we have a quality pitcher to step in for the injuries. The lack of a #5 in the rotation is going to cost us a playoff spot. Mark my words. We don't NEED OC's offense. All 30 points higher average than Juan Uribe that he brings. Our pitching carried us in the beginning of the year when OC and the rest of our hitters were non-existant. That is, until we started getting hurt... Pitching wins baseball games. If our pitching hadn't went to complete crap after the first few months, we'd be safely in the playoffs right now, because our offense came around. We just started giving up 8 runs a game at the same time.

 

Swisher, .226, and a pretty below average CF on defense. A guy that we gave up two top prospects for. One of which, is a starting pitcher, which, again, we're SORELY lacking right now.

 

Kenny's offseason moves left us with zero options on the mound.

 

P.S. With, or without OC, this team has no leadoff hitter... That has been our NUMBER ONE PROBLEM since we won the WS. It continues to be our #1 problem 3 years later. Completely unacceptable. We will not be competing for the world series until Kenny fixes this.

[Balta1701]

The only way OC brings us two draft picks, is if the White Sox offer him 8+mil next year... if I'm not mistaken. You guys really think that's going to happen? I don't.

They would be absolutely out of their minds to not offer Cabrera Arbitration. He'll pull in probably $10 million a year or more from someone next offseason over a couple years.

[bigruss]

They would be absolutely out of their minds to not offer Cabrera Arbitration. He'll pull in probably $10 million a year or more from someone next offseason over a couple years.

Even if he accepted arbitration for around $10 million, that would still be a good deal, he's not the best out there, but look who would be available...not to many guys out there that will be worth the money or theyre going to get huge contracts or stick with their teams.

 

One more year of OC wouldnt be that bad, hes still a good shortstop and at $10 your paying him right around market price, except just for a year.

 

[jenksycat]

The only way OC brings us two draft picks, is if the White Sox offer him 8+mil next year... if I'm not mistaken. You guys really think that's going to happen? I don't. So he's basically worthless to us. Not disappointed in him? lol You guys don't watch many games, do you? Gold glove caliber my ass. He's got a noodle arm, he doesn't get in front of the ball, he is always taking the round about way to grounders, and he has cost us a LOT of games by not making the play when he needed to. He should probably have anywhere from 5-10 more errors than he's been given credit for. I imagine that's because he's OC, and they don't want to have to deal with him calling them up after every error to argue it.(that just screams selfish) He's playing like a player that is just worried about his statistics, and not what he is contributing to this team winning. His defense has been nothing even CLOSE to what it was touted to be. Highly overrated. As I said, give me Juan Uribe at SS every day. I'd be more than happy with that. At least we knew what to expect day in and day out. A very streaky hitter, with a cannon for an arm, that makes the big plays on defense. Have you even watched the games he's played this year at 3B and SS? He's been pretty excellent.

 

We are in MUCH better shape right now with Garland on this team, instead of OC. At least then, we have a quality pitcher to step in for the injuries. The lack of a #5 in the rotation is going to cost us a playoff spot. Mark my words. We don't NEED OC's offense. All 30 points higher average than Juan Uribe that he brings. Our pitching carried us in the beginning of the year when OC and the rest of our hitters were non-existant. That is, until we started getting hurt... Pitching wins baseball games. If our pitching hadn't went to complete crap after the first few months, we'd be safely in the playoffs right now, because our offense came around. We just started giving up 8 runs a game at the same time.

 

Swisher, .226, and a pretty below average CF on defense. A guy that we gave up two top prospects for. One of which, is a starting pitcher, which, again, we're SORELY lacking right now.

 

Kenny's offseason moves left us with zero options on the mound.

 

P.S. With, or without OC, this team has no leadoff hitter... That has been our NUMBER ONE PROBLEM since we won the WS. It continues to be our #1 problem 3 years later. Completely unacceptable. We will not be competing for the world series until Kenny fixes this.

 

You also realize that, with Garland, there is no Floyd right? Floyd has been the best big-game pitcher and a close 2nd to best overall on this staff. We also have Uribe at SS and when Crede goes down.....Pablo? Now I hate OC as a person as much as anyone, but after his slow start he's been decent enough.

 

As for the Swisher deal, i love it and him. We gave up ehh in prospects, and got a young and inexpensive guy who brings some sorely needed energy to the team and can play multiple positions. I thank god everyday we didn't end up overpaying out the ass for f***indome and am confident Swisher will be a 30+ hr and .350+ OBP guy in the future.

[almagest]

The only way OC brings us two draft picks, is if the White Sox offer him 8+mil next year... if I'm not mistaken. You guys really think that's going to happen? I don't. So he's basically worthless to us. Not disappointed in him? lol You guys don't watch many games, do you? Gold glove caliber my ass. He's got a noodle arm, he doesn't get in front of the ball, he is always taking the round about way to grounders, and he has cost us a LOT of games by not making the play when he needed to. He should probably have anywhere from 5-10 more errors than he's been given credit for. I imagine that's because he's OC, and they don't want to have to deal with him calling them up after every error to argue it.(that just screams selfish) He's playing like a player that is just worried about his statistics, and not what he is contributing to this team winning. His defense has been nothing even CLOSE to what it was touted to be. Highly overrated. As I said, give me Juan Uribe at SS every day. I'd be more than happy with that. At least we knew what to expect day in and day out. A very streaky hitter, with a cannon for an arm, that makes the big plays on defense. Have you even watched the games he's played this year at 3B and SS? He's been pretty excellent.

 

We are in MUCH better shape right now with Garland on this team, instead of OC. At least then, we have a quality pitcher to step in for the injuries. The lack of a #5 in the rotation is going to cost us a playoff spot. Mark my words. We don't NEED OC's offense. All 30 points higher average than Juan Uribe that he brings. Our pitching carried us in the beginning of the year when OC and the rest of our hitters were non-existant. That is, until we started getting hurt... Pitching wins baseball games. If our pitching hadn't went to complete crap after the first few months, we'd be safely in the playoffs right now, because our offense came around. We just started giving up 8 runs a game at the same time.

 

Swisher, .226, and a pretty below average CF on defense. A guy that we gave up two top prospects for. One of which, is a starting pitcher, which, again, we're SORELY lacking right now.

 

Kenny's offseason moves left us with zero options on the mound.

 

P.S. With, or without OC, this team has no leadoff hitter... That has been our NUMBER ONE PROBLEM since we won the WS. It continues to be our #1 problem 3 years later. Completely unacceptable. We will not be competing for the world series until Kenny fixes this.

Jon Garland this year: 4.54 ERA, 1.450 WHIP, 95 ERA+ (100 being league average), in a pitcher's park with a good defense behind him. How would this help us? How would this be better than Floyd, who was his replacement?

Gio Gonzalez has a 7.18 ERA this year, pitching in Oakland. He wouldn't have helped. Neither would DLS, who's hurt. Also Nick Swisher has still managed to post a league-average OPS+ this year, the worst year of his career.

You also say that pitching wins baseball games, and we started struggling when our pitching started struggling, yet the NUMBER ONE PROBLEM with our team is no leadoff hitter? Are you just confused, or is this yet another knee jerk reaction for a team that's actually having a pretty damn good season, especially based on preseason projections?

Also, please tell me who this mystical leadoff hitter is that will solve all our problems, and how we can obtain said paragon.

[RockRaines]

You also realize that, with Garland, there is no Floyd right? Floyd has been the best big-game pitcher and a close 2nd to best overall on this staff. We also have Uribe at SS and when Crede goes down.....Pablo? Now I hate OC as a person as much as anyone, but after his slow start he's been decent enough.

 

As for the Swisher deal, i love it and him. We gave up ehh in prospects, and got a young and inexpensive guy who brings some sorely needed energy to the team and can play multiple positions. I thank god everyday we didn't end up overpaying out the ass for f***indome and am confident Swisher will be a 30+ hr and .350+ OBP guy in the future.

Actually Floyd had zero options, which means it meant no Danks. Which means the Ace of our staff would have been in AAA.

 

Plus his post doesnt make much sense past that either. He claimed 30 points in batting avg "isnt much"

[jenksycat]

Actually Floyd had zero options, which means it meant no Danks. Which means the Ace of our staff would have been in AAA.

 

Plus his post doesnt make much sense past that either. He claimed 30 points in batting avg "isnt much"

 

haha, this is true.

 

also, OC .327 OBP and .274 avg, half the K's, more BB.

[RockRaines]

haha, this is true.

 

also, OC .327 OBP and .274 avg, half the K's, more BB.

2007 SS

.234 .284 17 2B 1sb 17 errors in 150 games .976 FPCT

 

2008 SS

.273 .326 26 2B 18sb 12 errors in 136 games .980 FPCT

 

I'd say kenny did a pretty damn good job at improving that position.

[scenario]

There's just something I find hilarious about this topic.

 

We had one of the WORST records in baseball last year.

 

And we've spent all but a few days in 1st place this summer.

 

And... we're discussing... what?

 

Whether or not Kenny had a bad offseason????

 

Hey... if that's a bad offseason, I hope he has one every year from now on.

[Chisoxfn]

The only way OC brings us two draft picks, is if the White Sox offer him 8+mil next year... if I'm not mistaken. You guys really think that's going to happen? I don't. So he's basically worthless to us. Not disappointed in him? lol You guys don't watch many games, do you? Gold glove caliber my ass. He's got a noodle arm, he doesn't get in front of the ball, he is always taking the round about way to grounders, and he has cost us a LOT of games by not making the play when he needed to. He should probably have anywhere from 5-10 more errors than he's been given credit for. I imagine that's because he's OC, and they don't want to have to deal with him calling them up after every error to argue it.(that just screams selfish) He's playing like a player that is just worried about his statistics, and not what he is contributing to this team winning. His defense has been nothing even CLOSE to what it was touted to be. Highly overrated. As I said, give me Juan Uribe at SS every day. I'd be more than happy with that. At least we knew what to expect day in and day out. A very streaky hitter, with a cannon for an arm, that makes the big plays on defense. Have you even watched the games he's played this year at 3B and SS? He's been pretty excellent.

 

We are in MUCH better shape right now with Garland on this team, instead of OC. At least then, we have a quality pitcher to step in for the injuries. The lack of a #5 in the rotation is going to cost us a playoff spot. Mark my words. We don't NEED OC's offense. All 30 points higher average than Juan Uribe that he brings. Our pitching carried us in the beginning of the year when OC and the rest of our hitters were non-existant. That is, until we started getting hurt... Pitching wins baseball games. If our pitching hadn't went to complete crap after the first few months, we'd be safely in the playoffs right now, because our offense came around. We just started giving up 8 runs a game at the same time.

 

Swisher, .226, and a pretty below average CF on defense. A guy that we gave up two top prospects for. One of which, is a starting pitcher, which, again, we're SORELY lacking right now.

 

Kenny's offseason moves left us with zero options on the mound.

 

P.S. With, or without OC, this team has no leadoff hitter... That has been our NUMBER ONE PROBLEM since we won the WS. It continues to be our #1 problem 3 years later. Completely unacceptable. We will not be competing for the world series until Kenny fixes this.

The Sox will easily offer OC arbitration. OC will not accept arbitration (he will have at least a few teams offering him multi-year deals which would pay him 10+ million). The Sox will than get two draft picks as compensation. In fact, I absolutely guarantee with 99.9999% certainty that they will get draft picks. I won't even argue you when you call OC worthless defensively. Is Uribe better, sure, but Uribe is arguably the best defensive shortstop in all of baseball and OC is easily a top 7 defensive SS (I'd argue top 5).

[Paulie4Pres]

haha, this is true.

 

also, OC .327 OBP and .274 avg, half the K's, more BB.

 

How many games has OC won for us with his "added offense" over Uribe? Now how many games has he cost us with his lackluster effort at SS? Having watched almost every game this year, I can tell you with almost 100% certainty, that he has cost us more games with his s***ty play on defense, than he has won for us with his bat.

[Jake]

The Sox will easily offer OC arbitration. OC will not accept arbitration (he will have at least a few teams offering him multi-year deals which would pay him 10+ million). The Sox will than get two draft picks as compensation. In fact, I absolutely guarantee with 99.9999% certainty that they will get draft picks. I won't even argue you when you call OC worthless defensively. Is Uribe better, sure, but Uribe is arguably the best defensive shortstop in all of baseball and OC is easily a top 7 defensive SS (I'd argue top 5).

 

It's impossible to prove it one way or the other, but Uribe may be the third best shortstop on this team.

[RockRaines]

How many games has OC won for us with his "added offense" over Uribe? Now how many games has he cost us with his lackluster effort at SS? Having watched almost every game this year, I can tell you with almost 100% certainty, that he has cost us more games with his s***ty play on defense, than he has won for us with his bat.

He is on pace to have less errors than Uribe did last year.

 

I had to edit this post, realizing that nothing much is going to change your horrific opinion.

Edited September 3, 2008 by RockRaines

[jenksycat]

How many games has OC won for us with his "added offense" over Uribe? Now how many games has he cost us with his lackluster effort at SS? Having watched almost every game this year, I can tell you with almost 100% certainty, that he has cost us more games with his s***ty play on defense, than he has won for us with his bat.

 

ehh, its easy to say "i know he's cost us games" but you can't back that claim up. For all of Uribe's awesomeness on D, he's made some bonehead plays trying to be flashy too. And having 2x the strikeouts and a pathetic OBP is kind of a big deal.

 

Anyways, how the hell can you claim this was a terrible off-season? Aside from the miracle that is Tampa Bay, we have the best turnaround in baseball and have been in first for 100+ days. How is that bad?

 

With your moves, we have no Swisher and no OC. Which as a result means: no Danks, no swisher to fill in for a hurt PK, no Uribe to fill in for hurt Crede, Sweeney possibly playing in left instead of some guy named Quentin.

 

For me, I'll take OC and Swish over Garland and Gio Gonzalez any day.

[Chisoxfn]

How many games has OC won for us with his "added offense" over Uribe? Now how many games has he cost us with his lackluster effort at SS? Having watched almost every game this year, I can tell you with almost 100% certainty, that he has cost us more games with his s***ty play on defense, than he has won for us with his bat.

That is complete BS.

[RockRaines]

That is complete BS.

I just dont understand if his play was so s***ty, what does that make Uribe's last season?

[Balta1701]

That is complete BS.

I agree it's wrong, but I'm not going to go to the complete B.S. level...give you one major issue with Cabrera that backs his point up...in 2007, Juan Uribe had an OPS of .678. Cabrera is at .687 this year. Cabrera in terms of run production hasn't been dramatically far ahead of where Uribe was last year although he fits better in our order. So his defense ought to be better than what Uribe has put up.

[RockRaines]

It sucks when your first real thread on the board basically highlights your ignorance on the topic.

[RockRaines]

I agree it's wrong, but I'm not going to go to the complete B.S. level...give you one major issue with Cabrera that backs his point up...in 2007, Juan Uribe had an OPS of .678. Cabrera is at .687 this year. Cabrera in terms of run production hasn't been dramatically far ahead of where Uribe was last year although he fits better in our order. So his defense ought to be better than what Uribe has put up.

Most of the OPS for Juan was him hitting 20hr. More than twice Orlando will end up with. OC's OPS is almost entirely based on his OBP, which is more valuable for this already all or nothing team. His BA and OBP are a major improvement and his defense has been as good if not better than Juan's was last year. Juan was a giant hole that was filled pretty well by KW. There were probably better options out there somewhere, but the combination of OC+Danks >>>>>>Uribe at SS with Garland in the rotation.

[Chisoxfn]

I just dont understand if his play was so s***ty, what does that make Uribe's last season?

Worse than a little leaguer.

[santo=dorf]

Why do people automatically assume those that oppose the Cabrera trade still want Garland here? I've said many times I want Garland traded for a package of younger players. Perhaps we could've gotten something worth a damn at the deadline with those players.

 

Cabrera's defense hasn't been as good as advertised and is around Uribe's defensive season in 2007 (which was probably his worse) and the fact is his OPS is only 10 points higher than Uribe's last year. His OBP was a crappy .326 coming into today's game. That's Jerry Owens last year. In 2006 we railed all over an injured Scott Podsednik for putting up a .330 OBP. At this time in 2007 that POS, mistake from the signing, Darin Erstad had a line of .266/.324/.354/.678. That's unacceptable, and all those guys combined made less money than Cabrera and they kept their mouths shut.

[fathom]

I'm sorry, but to say "flop" is unbelievably stupid. Look at his career averages. What did KW expect? He's having a solid year, batting lead off on a new team. I think we got exactly what we expected.

 

Swish on the other hand...

 

Nope, they expected OC to be a leader in the clubhouse, as well as a terrific fundamental hitter. He's failed miserably at both.

[bigruss]

Why do people automatically assume those that oppose the Cabrera trade still want Garland here? I've said many times I want Garland traded for a package of younger players. Perhaps we could've gotten something worth a damn at the deadline with those players.

 

Cabrera's defense hasn't been as good as advertised and is around Uribe's defensive season in 2007 (which was probably his worse) and the fact is his OPS is only 10 points higher than Uribe's last year. His OBP was a crappy .326 coming into today's game. That's Jerry Owens last year. In 2006 we railed all over an injured Scott Podsednik for putting up a .330 OBP. At this time in 2007 that POS, mistake from the signing, Darin Erstad had a line of .266/.324/.354/.678. That's unacceptable, and all those guys combined made less money than Cabrera and they kept their mouths shut.

So, who's your shortstop? Who's your leadoff man? Be realistic about it, to get somebody better youre going to have to give up alot of talent, talent that we may not have been able to match.

[RockRaines]

Why do people automatically assume those that oppose the Cabrera trade still want Garland here? I've said many times I want Garland traded for a package of younger players. Perhaps we could've gotten something worth a damn at the deadline with those players.

 

Cabrera's defense hasn't been as good as advertised and is around Uribe's defensive season in 2007 (which was probably his worse) and the fact is his OPS is only 10 points higher than Uribe's last year. His OBP was a crappy .326 coming into today's game. That's Jerry Owens last year. In 2006 we railed all over an injured Scott Podsednik for putting up a .330 OBP. At this time in 2007 that POS, mistake from the signing, Darin Erstad had a line of .266/.324/.354/.678. That's unacceptable, and all those guys combined made less money than Cabrera and they kept their mouths shut.

Ah yes, the ol phantom deal that could have happened. OC has only been a lead off hitter because he was forced into the role.

 

Of course as a #1 hitter he hasnt been great, but has a line of .288 .335 .720