Anyone else hate our offseason moves?

[sox1844]

Nope, they expected OC to be a leader in the clubhouse, as well as a terrific fundamental hitter. He's failed miserably at both.

 

How can you possibly know that? Besides what the stupid Chicago media says, all you see is him talking to everyone and laughing etc. I don't get why everyone has decided he's "failed?" I wouldn't say .273 in the lead-off role is failing miserably....

 

Why don't people just see this for what it is - a one year rental that has turned out to be OK. Sox are doing a million times better than last year, so obviously KW did something right.

[santo=dorf]

Ah yes, trading Garland for a couple of prospects is such a stretch. From what I learned in this thread, we could've traded Garland for a bag of dog s*** (just speculation on my part) and it would have been worth it Gavin got his crack at the rotation

So, who's your shortstop? Who's your leadoff man? Be realistic about it, to get somebody better youre going to have to give up alot of talent, talent that we may not have been able to match.

Uribe (gulp) is my shortstop and I would've made a much stronger attempt to get Brian Roberts who the Sox were rumored to be after in the offseason AND at the deadline including giving up Cabrera to get him. I think that answers both of your questions. With the emergence of Ramirez it could've been possible to have Ramirez at short and Roberts at second at May.

 

Now I'll wait for the "wellRobertswasnevertradedsothatnotanoptionforthesox,justaphantomdeal" post.

[fathom]

How can you possibly know that? Besides what the stupid Chicago media says, all you see is him talking to everyone and laughing etc. I don't get why everyone has decided he's "failed?" I wouldn't say .273 in the lead-off role is failing miserably....

 

Why don't people just see this for what it is - a one year rental that has turned out to be OK. Sox are doing a million times better than last year, so obviously KW did something right.

 

I said he's failed at being a fundamental hitter. He's been horrible on hit-and-runs this season, can't get a bunt down to save his life, and has been miserable with RISP and 2 outs. The Sox are doing better this season than last due to people like Quentin, Linebrink, and Ramirez.

[Chisoxfn]

Ah yes, trading Garland for a couple of prospects is such a stretch. From what I learned in this thread, we could've traded Garland for a bag of dog s*** (just speculation on my part) and it would have been worth it Gavin got his crack at the rotation

 

Uribe (gulp) is my shortstop and I would've made a much stronger attempt to get Brian Roberts who the Sox were rumored to be after in the offseason AND at the deadline including giving up Cabrera to get him. I think that answers both of your questions. With the emergence of Ramirez it could've been possible to have Ramirez at short and Roberts at second at May.

 

Now I'll wait for the "wellRobertswasnevertradedsothatnotanoptionforthesox,justaphantomdeal" post.

We usually disagree but I will agree with you that you can't throw out the argument of who cares what we got, Floyd or Danks wouldn't have been up. I think you can say the Sox evidently traded from a position of strenght to fill a position of weakness (the Sox had 5 solid starters at the start of the season (of course as of opening day I would have never said we had 5 solid starters, but we did until Jose tanked) plus a starting SS). Now you could make the case that the Sox could have dealt Garland for prospects and found another way to get a SS who could fill the top of the order. However, I haven't seen anyone tell me what the Sox could have done better (That was available) which would have better filled the Sox needs (because with prospects and no OC, the Sox clearly aren't competing for a playoff spot).

 

Plus couldn't you make the case that the Sox did get prospects for Garland (2 upper draft picks+Oc's services). Essentially the Sox move Garland elsewhere, they clearly have to make another move (that could have very well been Roberts). But if the Sox acquired Roberts, Juan would have started at SS and its unlikely we would have seen Alexei get his chance to develop. However, if Alexei did develop I would agree that trading Garland for prospects and finding a way to get Roberts (with Alexei playing SS) would be one possibility of making the Sox better (as opposed to acquiring OC).

 

[Wanne]

Ah yes, trading Garland for a couple of prospects is such a stretch. From what I learned in this thread, we could've traded Garland for a bag of dog s*** (just speculation on my part) and it would have been worth it Gavin got his crack at the rotation

 

Nobody said that. What we've said is we got a starting SS (and a former GG winner). Good things happened IMO from that trade...OC has done a nice job...Alexei got a chance to shine, Gavin/Danks in the rotation and Juan has filled in very well at 3rd for an injured Joe (and who knows what would have happened at 3rd). We could be in a much worse position.

[scenario]

So... let's see if I can summarize about 90% of what I've read in this thread so far in 10 words or less:

 

- Cabrera has dissapointed people

- We shoulda got more for Garland

 

Does that pretty much sum it up?

 

 

(I'm not suggesting I agree with these points. Just trying to sum up the issues underlying many of the critical comments.)

Edited September 4, 2008 by scenario

[sox1844]

So... let's see if I can summarize about 90% of what I've read in this thread so far in 10 words or less:

 

- Cabrera has dissapointed people

- We shoulda got more for Garland

 

Does that pretty much sum it up?

 

Nope, I disagree. 100%. Cabrera was an even deal. Garland hated it here, glad we gave him what he wanted. Not surprising that another guy hates it here... Can't hold it against him.

[sox1844]

I said he's failed at being a fundamental hitter. He's been horrible on hit-and-runs this season, can't get a bunt down to save his life, and has been miserable with RISP and 2 outs. The Sox are doing better this season than last due to people like Quentin, Linebrink, and Ramirez.

Just going on what I've heard, OC is one of our best hitters in the clutch. Kinda sucks at bunting, but, Ozzie should have figured that out by now and stopped bunting him.

[Kalapse]

Just going on what I've heard, OC is one of our best hitters in the clutch.

The numbers say he sucks.

 

RISP: .259/.282/.345/.627

RISP & 2 Out: .172/.238/.224/.462

Close & Late: .241/.274/.329/.603

[fathom]

Just going on what I've heard, OC is one of our best hitters in the clutch. Kinda sucks at bunting, but, Ozzie should have figured that out by now and stopped bunting him.

 

Do yourself a favor, and don't let Hawk dictate how you view baseball players.

[Paulie4Pres]

So... let's see if I can summarize about 90% of what I've read in this thread so far in 10 words or less:

 

- Cabrera has dissapointed people

- We shoulda got more for Garland

 

Does that pretty much sum it up?

 

 

(I'm not suggesting I agree with these points. Just trying to sum up the issues underlying many of the critical comments.)

 

Basically, Cabrera has disappointed people, and sucks. Swisher has disappointed people, and sucks, and we gave up way too much to get him.

 

That pretty much sums it up, and there's really no arguing with that, if you've watched the majority of the games this year. Neither are a big improvement over what we had at those positions last year... If you think they are, you're fooling yourself.

 

[bmags]

I'd take cabrera this year over uribe last year for sure.

[scenario]

Basically, Cabrera has disappointed people, and sucks. Swisher has disappointed people, and sucks, and we gave up way too much to get him.

 

That pretty much sums it up, and there's really no arguing with that, if you've watched the majority of the games this year. Neither are a big improvement over what we had at those positions last year... If you think they are, you're fooling yourself.

 

Well... I agree with your right to say what you think, but suggesting that there is 'no arguing with it' and if someone does that 'they are fooling themselves' is ridiculous.

 

Swisher having an off year does not equal 'sucks'. And suggesting that neither is an improvement over what we had last year tells me you didn't watch much baseball last year.

 

[RockRaines]

Basically, Cabrera has disappointed people, and sucks. Swisher has disappointed people, and sucks, and we gave up way too much to get him.

 

That pretty much sums it up, and there's really no arguing with that, if you've watched the majority of the games this year. Neither are a big improvement over what we had at those positions last year... If you think they are, you're fooling yourself.

No arguing with it huh? Wow, you must think alot of your opinion without actually citing reality.

 

OC was an upgrade offensively and defensively at SS. Swish having a down year was an upgrade in CF and is under control for several seasons. I not only think they were upgrades, but the stats tell the truth as well.

 

Sorry your first thread had to be such a downer for your "opinion" , but facts are facts. And no offense, but you arent the only one who watches games here, in fact, Ive probably watched more in person than you as well.

[iamshack]

I think one can argue that the offseason moves that were trumpeted by the organization as big moves that would help us compete again this year have produced an underwhelming result.

 

However, simply because the moves that were expected to produce the results were not those that actually did, certainly does not make Kenny's offseason moves poor.

 

There is simply no denying the credit that is due both for acquiring CQ and signing Alexei.

 

Looking closely at the entire scope of moves that were made, and not just those that were hyped, results in the quite obvious and indisputable conclusion that Kenny had himself one hell of an offseason.

[Paulie4Pres]

Well... I agree with your right to say what you think, but suggesting that there is 'no arguing with it' and if someone does that 'they are fooling themselves' is ridiculous.

 

Swisher having an off year does not equal 'sucks'. And suggesting that neither is an improvement over what we had last year tells me you didn't watch much baseball last year.

 

Who says Swisher is having an off year? He's put up pretty much the same numbers his entire career, with a slightly higher average. He hits for power, but not for average. He sees a lot of pitches, walks quite a bit, but strikes out more than he walks. He batted .236 in 2005. He batted .254 in 2006. He batted .262 in 2006... Every year, hitting 20+ home runs. What makes everyone think he's having an off year? This is pretty much what we can expect from Swisher... He's not a good center fielder either... Hey, maybe they're looking to replace PK in the next couple years with Swisher... which would be ok if he could bring up his average and drive in more runs, but he better not be our solution at CF for the future. He doesn't have speed, and his defense leaves a lot to be desired.

[sox1844]

Basically, Cabrera has disappointed people, and sucks. Swisher has disappointed people, and sucks, and we gave up way too much to get him.

 

That pretty much sums it up, and there's really no arguing with that, if you've watched the majority of the games this year. Neither are a big improvement over what we had at those positions last year... If you think they are, you're fooling yourself.

I literally watch every single game. I am happy with what OC has done. I think he id better than Uribe in every way except arm strength, which would be hard for anyone to compete with. Uribe is a great utility player and a good back-up. He does not play every single day as well as OC. Sorry. If Cabrera has disappointed people, then they had unrealistic expectations of his abiltity, and thats not his fault. Again, I'll say he's played as well as can be expected and I'm happy for this year, since we've obviously destroyed our team's predictions based on last years dismal preformance.

 

 

 

[Paulie4Pres]

I think one can argue that the offseason moves that were trumpeted by the organization as big moves that would help us compete again this year have produced an underwhelming result.

 

However, simply because the moves that were expected to produce the results were not those that actually did, certainly does not make Kenny's offseason moves poor.

 

There is simply no denying the credit that is due both for acquiring CQ and signing Alexei.

 

Looking closely at the entire scope of moves that were made, and not just those that were hyped, results in the quite obvious and indisputable conclusion that Kenny had himself one hell of an offseason.

 

Yeah, I guess I chose the wrong title for this thread. Maybe it should have been "Anyone else hate our hyped up offseason moves?" That would have been more accurate, because I agree that CQ, Alexei, and Linebrink were great pickups.

 

By the way, why do people keep bringing up our improvement over last year? Seriously. Last year was one of the most underperforming White Sox teams I've watched in the last 10 years. We were picked to win the central last year with the team we had... Making zero changes to this team, we still would have improved dramatically over last year. There was no way not to.

Edited September 4, 2008 by CQMVP

[scenario]

Who says Swisher is having an off year? He's put up pretty much the same numbers his entire career, with a slightly higher average. He hits for power, but not for average. He sees a lot of pitches, walks quite a bit, but strikes out more than he walks. He batted .236 in 2005. He batted .254 in 2006. He batted .262 in 2006... Every year, hitting 20+ home runs. What makes everyone think he's having an off year? This is pretty much what we can expect from Swisher... He's not a good center fielder either... Hey, maybe they're looking to replace PK in the next couple years with Swisher... which would be ok if he could bring up his average and drive in more runs, but he better not be our solution at CF for the future. He doesn't have speed, and his defense leaves a lot to be desired.

 

So batting 30 points lower this year than 2 years ago... and almost 40 points lower than last year... is not an off-year to you, eh?

 

And he averaged over 30 doubles per season his first 3 years in MLB... and has only 19 so far this year... that's not a drop-off to you either?

 

He's 70 points lower in OPS this year than last... and approx. 100 points lower than two years ago...

 

But this year is 'pretty much the same numbers as his entire career'.

 

Wow. I take it you're a former Enron accountant.

 

[iamshack]

By the way, why do people keep bringing up our improvement over last year? Seriously. Last year was one of the most underperforming White Sox teams I've watched in the last 10 years. We were picked to win the central last year with the team we had... Making zero changes to this team, we still would have improved dramatically over last year. There was no way not to.

 

Couldn't agree more with that.

[bmags]

This thread just drives me nuts, last year we were cheering to lose to get a better draft pick. Now we are in first place in September, and we're talking about s***ty offseason moves? Are you we crazy? This offseason I was scared our cliff we went off of was as serious as the one the bears did. But we turned it around. ENJOY WINNING.

[bmags]

\

By the way, why do people keep bringing up our improvement over last year? Seriously. Last year was one of the most underperforming White Sox teams I've watched in the last 10 years. We were picked to win the central last year with the team we had... Making zero changes to this team, we still would have improved dramatically over last year. There was no way not to.

 

Probably because last year I had to watch an outfield of Darin Erstad, Jerry Owens and JD, Pablo Ozuna at 3rd or Andy Gonzalez, Juan Uribe at short hitting like 190, Iguchi or AG, and PK at first.

 

Yeah, this team is the same.

[Paulie4Pres]

Probably because last year I had to watch an outfield of Darin Erstad, Jerry Owens and JD, Pablo Ozuna at 3rd or Andy Gonzalez, Juan Uribe at short hitting like 190, Iguchi or AG, and PK at first.

 

Yeah, this team is the same.

 

How was Jerry Owens in the leadoff spot last year, any worse than OC in the leadoff spot this year? Their stats are pretty much identical.... except Owens actually knows how to steal bases. But OC is a huge improvement huh? lol

 

Some of you guys have blinders on.

[greg775]

Basically, Cabrera has disappointed people, and sucks. Swisher has disappointed people, and sucks, and we gave up way too much to get him.

 

I would disagree. I will not be upset if we move both after the season, but the jury is still out on both. We are fighting for a pennant. They can put us over the top, or help put us over the top the next 3 weeks. Neither of them have "sucked" they haven't been so bad you can use the "suck" word on them. I'm not a big fan of either but they haven't totally "sucked."

[scenario]

By the way, why do people keep bringing up our improvement over last year? Seriously. Last year was one of the most underperforming White Sox teams I've watched in the last 10 years. We were picked to win the central last year with the team we had... Making zero changes to this team, we still would have improved dramatically over last year. There was no way not to.

 

 

Yes we underperformed.

 

But who picked us for 1st last year??? Preseason 2007 was practically a media SWEEP for the Tigers.

 

Most people had us pegged for 3rd or 4th last year, not first.

 

Edited September 4, 2008 by scenario