Election Issues Only Thread

[YASNY]

In an attempt to civilize the 'Buster to a small degree, I'm opening this thread to discuss ONLY the issues that will affect our nation and the world. No snarkiness allowed. If you can't post without being snarky post it another thread. Some of us want to discuss things that ARE important. This thread is reserved from those people and any and all issues. Global warming? OK Foriegn policy? Yep

 

This not for linking up to an article that you happen to think is amusing or advantageous to your side, unless you need to in order to prove a point made in a previous post that has been challenged.

 

Fair enough, guys? Can we do this?

 

Edit to add: Mods and admins, let's police this one diligently.

[Texsox]

The Border Fence is behind schedule and current projections have this boondoggle at $400,000,000 over budget. And it will not solve the biggest problem, American businesses need workers willing to do some pretty crappy jobs in agriculture. Migrant work just sucks, but we have hundreds of thousands of people willing to do that work, just to the south of us. During war time we were quick to implement the Bracero Program when we did not have enough young men to sustain our ag industry. Too bad the current political climate calls for US educated kids to work these jobs.

[EvilMonkey]

The Border Fence is behind schedule and current projections have this boondoggle at $400,000,000 over budget. And it will not solve the biggest problem, American businesses need workers willing to do some pretty crappy jobs in agriculture. Migrant work just sucks, but we have hundreds of thousands of people willing to do that work, just to the south of us. During war time we were quick to implement the Bracero Program when we did not have enough young men to sustain our ag industry. Too bad the current political climate calls for US educated kids to work these jobs.

Tex, your migrant farm workers are not the ones people tend to worry about. How about those they keep arresting and deporting from meat packing plants? Yes, the work is dirty, but it does pay well, and there are plenty of Americans who want those jobs. And if I recall right, the last raid that was conducted had a bunch of workers cheering when INS showed up. You are correct, the border fence appears to be a boondoggle. .I will AGREE with you that we need a worker program of some kind. I will DISAGREE with you if you think that means amnesty for all those that broke the law and are here now. Especially for any that have used someone else's identity.

[Rex Kickass]

Tex, your migrant farm workers are not the ones people tend to worry about. How about those they keep arresting and deporting from meat packing plants? Yes, the work is dirty, but it does pay well, and there are plenty of Americans who want those jobs. And if I recall right, the last raid that was conducted had a bunch of workers cheering when INS showed up. You are correct, the border fence appears to be a boondoggle. .I will AGREE with you that we need a worker program of some kind. I will DISAGREE with you if you think that means amnesty for all those that broke the law and are here now. Especially for any that have used someone else's identity.

 

Yet, employers keep employing illegals and do so, knowingly. If you don't punish the employers, you can't solve the problem. I don't disagree with deporting undocumented residents, however I do disagree with letting the people who provided them the work that brought them here get off scot-free. And, when you think about it, the fall of labor unions in the workforce have a lot to do with illegal employment in this country, especially in the meatpacking plants.

[EvilMonkey]

Yet, employers keep employing illegals and do so, knowingly. If you don't punish the employers, you can't solve the problem. I don't disagree with deporting undocumented residents, however I do disagree with letting the people who provided them the work that brought them here get off scot-free. And, when you think about it, the fall of labor unions in the workforce have a lot to do with illegal employment in this country, especially in the meatpacking plants.

I have been and still am 100% in favor of punishing business that knowingly hire illegals.

[DABearSoX]

The Border Fence is behind schedule and current projections have this boondoggle at $400,000,000 over budget. And it will not solve the biggest problem, American businesses need workers willing to do some pretty crappy jobs in agriculture. Migrant work just sucks, but we have hundreds of thousands of people willing to do that work, just to the south of us. During war time we were quick to implement the Bracero Program when we did not have enough young men to sustain our ag industry. Too bad the current political climate calls for US educated kids to work these jobs.

 

I always wondered if this whole "fence" thing is really gonna work. I mean as Ian Malcom puts it "Life finds a way." Do you know if they are building it like 20 feet into the ground to deter tunnels as well?

[ChiSox_Sonix]

I always wondered if this whole "fence" thing is really gonna work. I mean as Ian Malcom puts it "Life finds a way." Do you know if they are building it like 20 feet into the ground to deter tunnels as well?

 

 

A friend of mine was just sent out to New Mexico a couple months ago to be a border guard. He shot himself in the leg on accident in one of his first weeks there. Just thought it was funny and i'd share. We mock him constantly now.

 

As far as the fence issue, I'd really like to know more about what the two candidates opinions on the fence is. I think I have an idea, but i dont know definitively.

[Middle Buffalo]

I always wondered if this whole "fence" thing is really gonna work. I mean as Ian Malcom puts it "Life finds a way." Do you know if they are building it like 20 feet into the ground to deter tunnels as well?

At some point in the fence, there will be a gate. The gate will be patrolled by guards. The guards can be corrupted. Far more people than we think pass through the border because the people patrolling it look the other way. That's why building a wall is a waste of time/money.

 

 

[Texsox]

I have been and still am 100% in favor of punishing business that knowingly hire illegals.

 

I agree. Swift was voluntarily participating in a government program to help them hire legals and avoid accepting fraudulent documentation. But that didn't stop a different arm of the government from raiding them. It's like punishing someone for accepting a counterfeit bill.

 

And meat packing plants do pay well, but not enough people are willing to move to the middle of nowhere and still fewer want the volume of cattle that pass through in their own back yards. Bottom line, undesirable work in cold conditions at extremely fast pace to provide groceries to Americans at prices we can live with.

[Texsox]

At some point in the fence, there will be a gate. The gate will be patrolled by guards. The guards can be corrupted. Far more people than we think pass through the border because the people patrolling it look the other way. That's why building a wall is a waste of time/money.

 

Actually, at least here, there will be lots of gates to allow property owners, most ranchers and farmers access to the river for water. And the gates will be locked, but not guarded 24/7. Basically patrols. And many property owners have found themselves cut off from most of their land, and the river front acreage is the most valuable. Imagine building a fence on Lake Michigan, Through Lake Forrest and cutting those home owners off from the lake. That pig would fly.

[mr_genius]

I saw the Obama interview with Bill O'reilly ( Obama did a great job in that interview) and he said he will give out a very detailed plan as to how to become energy independent. So I would be very interested to see the real numbers. I don't want an abstract 'some solar panels' type of answer. I would like to see the research funding he plans to spend.

Edited September 13, 2008 by mr_genius

[lostfan]

I saw the Obama interview with Bill O'reilly ( Obama did a great job in that interview) and he said he will give out a very detailed plan as to how to become energy independent. So I would be very interested to see the real numbers. I don't want an abstract 'some solar panels' type of answer. I would be very interested to see the research funding he plans to spend.

What was Obama's response when O'Reilly asked him about Ayers? I meant to watch but I had something else to do.

[mr_genius]

What was Obama's response when O'Reilly asked him about Ayers? I meant to watch but I had something else to do.

 

I didn't see that question. I think FOX showed portions of the interview each day this week as to capitalize on the big ratings for an Obama / O'Reilly interview. I must have missed the day they showed to portion of the interview where Obama gets asked about Ayers.

[knightni]

I'd like the new President to slow down the outsourcing of work that's been happening.

 

Any item imported into the US that comes from a company based in the US but produced overseas should have a tariff put on it.

 

Any fraud involving the circumnavigating of the tariff would involve high fines and penalties.

 

 

 

[lostfan]

I didn't see that question. I think FOX showed portions of the interview each day this week as to capitalize on the big ratings for an Obama / O'Reilly interview. I must have missed the day they showed to portion of the interview where Obama gets asked about Ayers.

I only saw portions of it. From the parts I saw, O'Reilly was tough, but the questions he was asking were fair. Obama seemed to handle himself pretty well.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'd like the new President to slow down the outsourcing of work that's been happening.

 

Any item imported into the US that comes from a company based in the US but produced overseas should have a tariff put on it.

 

Any fraud involving the circumnavigating of the tariff would involve high fines and penalties.

I personally think that would be a huge mistake. What you want, ultimately, is US businesses to do well and hire more people at as good wages. Taxing them for outsourcing will cause businesses to shrink and do the opposite.

 

You want a solution to outsourcing? Move forward instead of backwards. Work on education, and do everything you can policy-wise to create jobs on the FRONT edge of modern business, instead of the back end. If we keep trying desperately to cling to businesses whose cycle dicates they are in a constricting phase, pretty soon, we'll tariff and low-paying job ourselves out of financial superpower status.

 

[Balta1701]

I'd like the new President to slow down the outsourcing of work that's been happening.

Here's the interesting thing...George W. Bush may well have helped stop that.

 

The 2 things that have really supported offshoring of jobs is cheap transportation for manufactured goods and the strength of the dollar which made paying U.S. workers more costly.

 

Now, thanks to our inaction on energy, the price of moving goods has gone up significantly and probably will keep going up for the next administration, and we've managed to print enough money that the strong dollar is now nothing but a slogan.

[mr_genius]

I personally think that would be a huge mistake. What you want, ultimately, is US businesses to do well and hire more people at as good wages. Taxing them for outsourcing will cause businesses to shrink and do the opposite.

 

You want a solution to outsourcing? Move forward instead of backwards. Work on education, and do everything you can policy-wise to create jobs on the FRONT edge of modern business, instead of the back end. If we keep trying desperately to cling to businesses whose cycle dicates they are in a constricting phase, pretty soon, we'll tariff and low-paying job ourselves out of financial superpower status.

 

Another issue is that the US merely does not have the enough skilled workers in field such as engineering. Basically, if we don't have people from other countries doing this complicated, important work we won't have enough people to get the job done. New technologies often require a lot of engineering innovation. American companies often need to go overseas to find qualified people to do this work (be that outsourcing or bringing workers over on a visa program). In the end, I believe it helps our economy more than it hurts.

 

But I really do understand where Knightni is coming form and I think we have signed some bad deals in the past that give other countries an unfair trade advantage. I'm all for protecting the American worker, but I'm not sure what the solution would be. So, I too, would like to see this issue covered in the election.

Edited September 13, 2008 by mr_genius

[DrunkBomber]

I have been and still am 100% in favor of punishing business that knowingly hire illegals.

A lot of the time politicians will use the excuse that they cant go around and round up all of the illegal immigrants which is true, but if you punish the enablers severely than it will be harder for them to stay here. I think if an employer is caught employing illegals he should be harshly fined and on an escalated scale. I also think housing should require proof of citizenship. Then, for fun, maybe go to the illegal immigrant rallies and arrest them all. Im sure if drug dealers held a rally that cops would go there to arrest them.

[mr_genius]

Here's the interesting thing...George W. Bush may well have helped stop that.

 

The 2 things that have really supported offshoring of jobs is cheap transportation for manufactured goods and the strength of the dollar which made paying U.S. workers more costly.

 

Now, thanks to our inaction on energy, the price of moving goods has gone up significantly and probably will keep going up for the next administration, and we've managed to print enough money that the strong dollar is now nothing but a slogan.

 

The weak dollar does make our goods and services more affordable in countries that aren't 10 trillion in debt and have strong currency.

[Texsox]

Just keep in mind, how well does your employer investigate employee paperwork for working? Now imagine if your employer is tricked and they have to pay a huge fine, will that seem fair? Not every company who has an illegal on their payroll is aware they are employing illegals.

 

Is it really in our national's best interest to cripple our agriculture industry?

[EvilMonkey]

Just keep in mind, how well does your employer investigate employee paperwork for working? Now imagine if your employer is tricked and they have to pay a huge fine, will that seem fair? Not every company who has an illegal on their payroll is aware they are employing illegals.

 

Is it really in our national's best interest to cripple our agriculture industry?

It might be one thing if a small business of 25 employees had one illegal working for them, but for a plant with 1100 employees to be 40% illegal, someone dropped the ball. plants like that have people whose only job is HR, these are things they need to find out.

[Texsox]

It might be one thing if a small business of 25 employees had one illegal working for them, but for a plant with 1100 employees to be 40% illegal, someone dropped the ball. plants like that have people whose only job is HR, these are things they need to find out.

 

Bank Tellers have been fooled by counterfeits, Museums by forgeries. But taking that 1100 person plant. Should 600 legals lose their jobs because an HR person did something wrong?

 

And again I ask, is it worth crippling our Agriculture Industry to send millions of able, trained, and willing workers away so we can hire people who have been unwilling to take those jobs? Do we want to see gas price like increases in our food bills and the ripple effect throughout the economy?

[YASNY]

A lot of the time politicians will use the excuse that they cant go around and round up all of the illegal immigrants which is true, but if you punish the enablers severely than it will be harder for them to stay here. I think if an employer is caught employing illegals he should be harshly fined and on an escalated scale. I also think housing should require proof of citizenship. Then, for fun, maybe go to the illegal immigrant rallies and arrest them all. Im sure if drug dealers held a rally that cops would go there to arrest them.

 

When talking about punishing enablers severly, I believe sanctuary cities should be included.

[southsider2k5]

I'd like the new President to slow down the outsourcing of work that's been happening.

 

Any item imported into the US that comes from a company based in the US but produced overseas should have a tariff put on it.

 

Any fraud involving the circumnavigating of the tariff would involve high fines and penalties.

 

Then again we could stop imports entirely by not buying them...