Ozzie calls out Javy

[BlackBetsy]

Javy has been questioned before he came to the White Sox, however the facts are :

2006 White Sox win 90, Javy below .500

2007 White Sox lose 90, Javy 15-8

2008 White Sox contending all year should win 90+, Javy below .500

 

Bad month in NY? July ERA 6.61, August ERA 7.44. September ERA 6.29. He was so brutal the second half of his season with the Yankees and then in the playoffs, he was sent packing and the Yankees thought he was injured.

 

So, for 2 years he's played with good teams in Chicago, his winning pct. is below that of his career. He played for a good team in NY and didn't get the job done. Maybe he can change some minds tonight, because pitchers making 8 figures a year should do well in big situations, not just when your playing out the string.

 

Javy Vazquez for whatever reason doesn't seem to be comfortable on winning teams. He likes the pressure off. Last year he wasn't so much 15-8 for a 90 loss team, he was 9-3 in the second half for a team that went 33-43 in the second half with absolutely no pressure. In the first half, the Sox struggled but were still considered a team that could eventually compete and had a shot. No one thought that in the second half.

 

That said, all will be forgiven if he wins the game tonight.

[Milkman delivers]

Javy has been questioned before he came to the White Sox, however the facts are :

2006 White Sox win 90, Javy below .500

2007 White Sox lose 90, Javy 15-8

2008 White Sox contending all year should win 90+, Javy below .500

 

Bad month in NY? July ERA 6.61, August ERA 7.44. September ERA 6.29. He was so brutal the second half of his season with the Yankees and then in the playoffs, he was sent packing and the Yankees thought he was injured.

 

So, for 2 years he's played with good teams in Chicago, his winning pct. is below that of his career. He played for a good team in NY and didn't get the job done. Maybe he can change some minds tonight, because pitchers making 8 figures a year should do well in big situations, not just when your playing out the string.

 

I don't believe it. Statistics can be twisted to support anything.

[Dick Allen]

 

Javy Vazquez for whatever reason doesn't seem to be comfortable on winning teams. He likes the pressure off. Last year he wasn't so much 15-8 for a 90 loss team, he was 9-3 in the second half for a team that went 33-43 in the second half with absolutely no pressure. In the first half, the Sox struggled but were still considered a team that could eventually compete and had a shot. No one thought that in the second half.

 

That said, all will be forgiven if he wins the game tonight.

That's exactly right. I don't buy his flippant comments about not caring when he retires. I'm sure he would rather be remembered as a guy who can win you a big game. It can all start tonight, and for the duration until the WS victory.

[VAfan]

My addition to this thread is that Ozzie has to do his part too. And that means pulling Javy, as early as the 6th inning, if the game is tight.

 

Two years ago we watched as Javy blew, by my memory, something like 11 leads in the 6th inning. It was unbelievable. The last game he won on the year was against Yankees, I believe. And he only won that game because Ozzie yanked him after 5.

 

So, I only put the first 5 innings on Javy in tonight's game. After that, I consider Ozzie to have been forewarned. (Javy should be better, but it's just wishful thinking trying to make him into something he's not at this point.) Granted, our bullpen would be stretched to cover 4 innings, but it still might give us a better chance.

[BlackBetsy]

My addition to this thread is that Ozzie has to do his part too. And that means pulling Javy, as early as the 6th inning, if the game is tight.

 

Two years ago we watched as Javy blew, by my memory, something like 11 leads in the 6th inning. It was unbelievable. The last game he won on the year was against Yankees, I believe. And he only won that game because Ozzie yanked him after 5.

 

So, I only put the first 5 innings on Javy in tonight's game. After that, I consider Ozzie to have been forewarned. (Javy should be better, but it's just wishful thinking trying to make him into something he's not at this point.) Granted, our bullpen would be stretched to cover 4 innings, but it still might give us a better chance.

I agree with this. If the Sox are up say 4-0 after 5 innings, only let Javy pitch until he lets a runner on base. Then Thornton for up to 2 innings and Jenks for up to 2 innings. No one other than Thornton or Jenks pitches to Mauer / Morneau. This game is that important. If the Sox win this one, it gets them 90% of the way towards winning the division.

[Disco72]

My addition to this thread is that Ozzie has to do his part too. And that means pulling Javy, as early as the 6th inning, if the game is tight.

 

Two years ago we watched as Javy blew, by my memory, something like 11 leads in the 6th inning. It was unbelievable. The last game he won on the year was against Yankees, I believe. And he only won that game because Ozzie yanked him after 5.

 

So, I only put the first 5 innings on Javy in tonight's game. After that, I consider Ozzie to have been forewarned. (Javy should be better, but it's just wishful thinking trying to make him into something he's not at this point.) Granted, our bullpen would be stretched to cover 4 innings, but it still might give us a better chance.

 

I really hope the bullpen does not need to go 4 innings tonight. I'd rather leave Javy in unless he's in big trouble.

[Allsox]

I'll say this much on Javy. If the Sox do make the playoffs, he's my 4th starter. I go Buehrle, Floyd and Danks before I go to Javy in a playoff series. Given that, I hope he can give us Good Javy and not bad Javy tonight.

[caulfield12]

My addition to this thread is that Ozzie has to do his part too. And that means pulling Javy, as early as the 6th inning, if the game is tight.

 

Two years ago we watched as Javy blew, by my memory, something like 11 leads in the 6th inning. It was unbelievable. The last game he won on the year was against Yankees, I believe. And he only won that game because Ozzie yanked him after 5.

 

So, I only put the first 5 innings on Javy in tonight's game. After that, I consider Ozzie to have been forewarned. (Javy should be better, but it's just wishful thinking trying to make him into something he's not at this point.) Granted, our bullpen would be stretched to cover 4 innings, but it still might give us a better chance.

 

 

Realistically, who do you want to have cover that many innings, assuming we're tied or down just 1-2 runs and don't end up using Jenks in the 8th or 9th?

 

Do you want to burn through Thornton/Dotel/Linebrink. Can we just stick someone like Clayton Richard out there in relief and bring him into the game in a high-pressure situation (over Ramirez/Logan)? MacDougal? Carrasco, with the way he's pitched recently?

 

I agree with not messing with Logan, Wasserman or Ramirez...and Adam Russell seems to have fallen into a BA/Sean Tracey black hole. Is Russell injured. At one point this season, I thought he had a minimal chance to replace Jenks someday, if we decided to dump salary.

 

Blowing through our best relievers, I guess, is like this whole three day's rest thing. The season is still a marathon, not a sprint. Conceivably, the relievers might need to be available 7 days in a row, worst-case scenario. I keep pointing at tomorrow's game as the real pressure-cooker for Ozzie and the boys...Sox lose those first two games and the monkey is off the Twins' back and the Twins would in all likelihood sweep right through us and into the playoffs.

 

[VAfan]

I agree with this. If the Sox are up say 4-0 after 5 innings, only let Javy pitch until he lets a runner on base. Then Thornton for up to 2 innings and Jenks for up to 2 innings. No one other than Thornton or Jenks pitches to Mauer / Morneau. This game is that important. If the Sox win this one, it gets them 90% of the way towards winning the division.

 

The game that comes to mind this year is the Rays game on August 23rd, where Javy was blowing them away. Perfect game into the 6th. He gives up a run. But appears to settle by retiring them in the 7th. But with a 3-1 lead, Ozzie lets him start the 8th, where he immediately loads the bases with no outs. Two singles and a walk. It's too late at that point. The bullpen falters and lets 4 runs score.

 

Now, that's not a perfect match, because Javy survived the 6th with the lead. But it's close because Ozzie waited far too long to yank him in the 8th. I wouldn't have even started him that inning. But I certainly would have yanked him as soon as the first guy got on.

 

I wouldn't yank Javy before 5 full tonight. But I'd sure as heck get him out of there before the tying run ever got to the on-deck circle after that.

[Ron]

Do you have any proof of that at all?

 

Well I mean how does one really measure a player's "want" anyway? Just because someone wants to win badly doesn't mean that they will win, or even that they will play well. Hell, sometimes it has the opposite affect. You want to win so bad you press and end up playing poorly.

[VAfan]

Realistically, who do you want to have cover that many innings, assuming we're tied or down just 1-2 runs and don't end up using Jenks in the 8th or 9th?

 

Do you want to burn through Thornton/Dotel/Linebrink. Can we just stick someone like Clayton Richard out there in relief and bring him into the game in a high-pressure situation (over Ramirez/Logan)? MacDougal? Carrasco, with the way he's pitched recently?

 

I agree with not messing with Logan, Wasserman or Ramirez...and Adam Russell seems to have fallen into a BA/Sean Tracey black hole. Is Russell injured. At one point this season, I thought he had a minimal chance to replace Jenks someday, if we decided to dump salary.

 

Blowing through our best relievers, I guess, is like this whole three day's rest thing. The season is still a marathon, not a sprint. Conceivably, the relievers might need to be available 7 days in a row, worst-case scenario. I keep pointing at tomorrow's game as the real pressure-cooker for Ozzie and the boys...Sox lose those first two games and the monkey is off the Twins' back and the Twins would in all likelihood sweep right through us and into the playoffs.

 

 

I'd be willing to blow the whole bullpen to win tonight's game. It's that important. It takes a Twins sweep off the table. Keeps open the possibility of ending the division race in Minnesota. And cuts our magic number to 3 with 6 games to play. Plus, who knows if we'll need a bullpen Wednesday night? We've hit their starter hard.

 

[caulfield12]

Using Thornton and Jenks for multiple innings just doesn't seem like a good idea to me, for some reason.

 

Let's say we did that, we lost the game tonight by one run and then we couldn't use either for Buehrle's start against Blackburn tomorrow night? Then who would we turn to if MB had 100+ pitches going into the 8th inning?

 

Maybe Ozzie would push Mark into the 120-130 range in pitch count, but our pitching (except for Danks) might be so taxed this week that we go down 1-2-3 to either the Red Sox or Rays next week. I know job #1 is the playoffs, but you have to manage on a game-by-game basis, and all signs point to Game 2 being the most critical of this series.

 

You can also imagine the White Sox winning Game 1 and either relaxing and losing the next two (well, we "survived" and won one game!) or really taking it to a deflated Twins' team, like when we knocked out the Indians in 2005. And the Indians having a chance to return the favor 3 years later in our park really scares me from a karma standpoint. Fortunately, both teams have had significant roster turnover, but the memories are still there for Hafter, Martinez, Sizemore, Peralta, I'm sure they have not forgotten.

[caulfield12]

I'd be willing to blow the whole bullpen to win tonight's game. It's that important. It takes a Twins sweep off the table. Keeps open the possibility of ending the division race in Minnesota. And cuts our magic number to 3 with 6 games to play. Plus, who knows if we'll need a bullpen Wednesday night? We've hit their starter hard.

 

 

The only problem is that with the pitch-by-pitch stress and playoff-like atmosphere (see 1987/1991), you're right the first game is very important.

 

But that also leads to 100 pitches under duress by Buehrle roughly being the same thing as 115-125 on a cold/crisp September or May start against the Royals outdoors.

 

You just don't count on MB going the distance...with the White Sox road record, and Mark's 5+ ERA on the road, 4-9 record, etc. Of course, he's got the most wins against the Twins of any team in his career, and all the experience in the world in these situations compared to Nick Blackburn. But it just seems like all those things get thrown out the window and it's anybody's game to win or lose at this point, after this wacky, back-and-forth season.

 

White Sox are underdogs in tonight's game for sure. 60% picking Twins, 40% picking Sox.

http://scores.wagerline.com/baseball-score...tchups.aspx?t=0

 

I'm sure tomorrow it will be much closer to 50/50.

Edited September 23, 2008 by caulfield12

[BlackBetsy]

Could this be a more pathetic quote from Javy (from Whitesox.com):

 

Yet, the tone for the three games will be set on Tuesday, with Vazquez and Scott Baker on the mound. In possibly his biggest start with the White Sox, Vazquez faces a team that he has already defeated twice in 2008, pitching at a locale he doesn't particularly like.

 

"I don't like pitching in domes," Vazquez said. "I've always felt like baseball should be played outdoors, and playing indoors is a little depressing. But you have to do it.

 

"I've known for a while I would have a game there, an important game. Hopefully, we come out on top."

 

And this guy is a competitor? He whines about having to pitch in a dome, how it's depressing, and then says "hopefully" the Sox will win.

 

All will be forgiven if he wins, but for crying out loud, this guy even talks like a loser.

 

[VAfan]

Win tonight. Worry about tomorrow tomorrow.

 

Jenks has thrown 57.1 innings in 54 games. There is no way we could overuse him at this point in the season. Thornton has gone 70 games and 64 innings. He has that easy delivery on his heater. I don't think he's tired. His September ERA is 2.0.

 

Win tonight. Whatever it takes.

 

 

[greg775]

Javy sucks at times like tonight. Nice job Javy. Way to come through in the clutch.

 

That said ... my prediction is tonight Ramirez costs us the game.

And ... is there a worse player in baseball history than Boone Logan? My god that guy is so bad it is hard to fathom.

[whitesoxfan99]

Javy sucks at times like tonight. Nice job Javy. Way to come through in the clutch.

 

That said ... my prediction is tonight Ramirez costs us the game.

And ... is there a worse player in baseball history than Boone Logan? My god that guy is so bad it is hard to fathom.

 

If Horacio Ramirez pitches in a close game tonight Ozzie should be fired on the spot.

Edited September 24, 2008 by whitesoxfan99

[greg775]

he Sox are 9-11 in September, their lead over the Twins is down to 1½ games, and they know their ultimate goal -- completing a division-clinching sweep -- is now off the table. They knocked it off the table by turning in one of their worst performances of the season and creating even more tension for the last two games of the series.

 

This was in DeLuca's column on Javy sucking.

We are 9-11 in September. What a joke. If we are 14-6 we win the division easy. f***heads.

[MexSoxFan#1]

I'll say this much on Javy. If the Sox do make the playoffs, he's my 4th starter. I go Buehrle, Floyd and Danks before I go to Javy in a playoff series. Given that, I hope he can give us Good Javy and not bad Javy tonight.

The way he pitched tonight I d kick him off the rotation,why couldn t Vazquez be the one who tore his achilles instead of Contreras?At least Jose has shown us he has balls in big games,unlike Javy who is testically challenged in those same moments...

[BearSox]

I guarantee you Vazquez has either a dead arm or some sort of injury/discomfort he's not letting anyone know. For a while now, he has not had much on the ball, and last night was no exception. His fastball was barely hitting 90-91, and had very little movement compared to his good fastball. His changeup stayed up, his curve didn't curve, and his slider didn't slide.

 

As of now, I would shut down Javy for the rest of the season, hoping he can regain some stuff come (hopefully) October.

[caulfield12]

The way he pitched tonight I d kick him off the rotation,why couldn t Vazquez be the one who tore his achilles instead of Contreras?At least Jose has shown us he has balls in big games,unlike Javy who is testically challenged in those same moments...

 

 

I think it's "testicularly challenged" would be the right description...

 

many have mentioned his loss of velocity...including the Twins' announers, who said he didn't have the usual life or "oomph" on his pitches, that the ball wasn't popping the catcher's mitt, and that the moving fastball was his best weapon, but that he wasn't featuring it

 

if javy doesn't start saturday, who in God's name does? very scary, because the Saturday game was the one that on paper, we looked to be in the most favorable position to win

[Kyyle23]

I guarantee you Vazquez has either a dead arm or some sort of injury/discomfort he's not letting anyone know. For a while now, he has not had much on the ball, and last night was no exception. His fastball was barely hitting 90-91, and had very little movement compared to his good fastball. His changeup stayed up, his curve didn't curve, and his slider didn't slide.

 

As of now, I would shut down Javy for the rest of the season, hoping he can regain some stuff come (hopefully) October.

 

Quit kissing his ass because he has good stuff. Javy does this often, he has done it his whole career. it has nothing to do with injury, he shies away from big games.

[BearSox]

Quit kissing his ass because he has good stuff. Javy does this often, he has done it his whole career. it has nothing to do with injury, he shies away from big games.

He had nothing on the ball, and anyone can see this. He hasn't had much on the ball since June. He had a little streach last month and little bit into September, but otherwise, he hasn't had anything on the ball.

 

Are you going to tell me he was choking during big games in June?

 

I agree with the aspect that Javy isn't a big game pitcher, but I am telling you, there's something wrong with his arm.

[Kyyle23]

He had nothing on the ball, and anyone can see this. He hasn't had much on the ball since June. He had a little streach last month and little bit into September, but otherwise, he hasn't had anything on the ball.

 

Are you going to tell me he was choking during big games in June?

 

I agree with the aspect that Javy isn't a big game pitcher, but I am telling you, there's something wrong with his arm.

 

the guy was hitting 92-93 in the until he walked Morneau, then he reverted to nibbling, like he ALWAYS does, and got lit up.

 

No, there is nothing wrong with his arm. quit making excuses for him.

[RockRaines]

He had nothing on the ball, and anyone can see this. He hasn't had much on the ball since June. He had a little streach last month and little bit into September, but otherwise, he hasn't had anything on the ball.

 

Are you going to tell me he was choking during big games in June?

 

I agree with the aspect that Javy isn't a big game pitcher, but I am telling you, there's something wrong with his arm.

He was popping his fastball from 92-96. He had plenty on the ball. Of course that was in the first inning when he actually threw a couple of good fastballs.