Ozzie calls out Javy

[scenario]

He had one start and 2 relief appearances for the Yankees in the 2004 playoffs, and was crushed in all 3 games (including giving up a grand slam to Johnny Damon, the signature moment of the Red Sox comeback). He had a pre all star game ERA of 3.56 that year and a post all star game ERA of 6.92. He also went 0-6 in his last 10 starts for the White Sox in 2006, and we were in that race obviously. Combine that with his two most recent starts this season, and you get the "choker" label.

 

 

I'm glad you brought up 2006... and him going 0-6 in his last 10 starts.

 

Go back (link) and look at those games. He pitched GREAT. The offense should have had all of their pictures on milk cartons. THAT is why he went 0-6.... not because he pitched poorly. (10 of his last 12 starts he pitched extremely well... not average... not just good.)

 

So if the end of 2006 is part of your choker argument, you need some new evidence.

 

 

 

[scenario]

I'll let someone else handle this argument (as there's been so many made in this thread), as I'm so tired of focusing on Javy when the offense deserves more of the blame for recent struggles.

 

What is so hard about the question fathom?

 

Which were the big games?

 

The link shows all of his starts.

 

So... what were they?

 

Or are you just venting?

 

 

[LosMediasBlancas]

According to some of you, when Ozzie says something controversial to the press, it's to take the heat off of his players. It didn't seem to work with Javy this time. And what happened to his guarantee that this team was gonna fight until the end? The season is not over, but we didn't see any of it last night.

So, is Ozzie still the genius motivator?

 

[whitesoxfan101]

According to some of you, when Ozzie says something controversial to the press, it's to take the heat off of his players. It didn't seem to work with Javy this time. And what happened to his guarantee that this team was gonna fight until the end? The season is not over, but we didn't see any of it last night.

So, is Ozzie still the genius motivator?

 

Motivation is overrated, as is everything Ozzie says. We lost last night for the same reason we have lost a lot lately, we aren't hitting. Javy obviously did not get the job done and that made it look very ugly, but the offense is why we lost. My bigger issue with Ozzie is Griffey should not be starting in any of these games at the spacious Metrodome, but that isn't why we lost either.

 

I'm glad you brought up 2006... and him going 0-6 in his last 10 starts.

 

Go back (link) and look at those games. He pitched GREAT. The offense should have had all of their pictures on milk cartons. THAT is why he went 0-6.... not because he pitched poorly. (10 of his last 12 starts he pitched extremely well... not average... not just good.)

 

So if the end of 2006 is part of your choker argument, you need some new evidence.

 

I looked at the log. His ERA went from the low 5's to the high 4's during that time, so to say he pitched great is a "stretch". Once again, I'm not saying he is definitely a choker as if it's gospel, my post a few back is just explaining to you why he has that reputation among most people, including myself.

Edited September 24, 2008 by whitesoxfan101

[Dick Allen]

Of course it matters. Are you trying to say that facts don't matter... it's only opinions that matter?

 

If someone says he's a big game choker then they should be able to point out the big games... unless they're just venting which I can understand because last night was ugly.

 

So... what are the BIG games?

 

For example: on August 17th, when we were tied with the Twins and playing the A's on the west coast... and Javy went 8 innings, and gave up only 4 hits to help the Sox take the series and stay in first place. Was that a "big game"?

 

Or when we had just lost two games in Cleveland the beginning of this month... and we were in danger of being swept... and Javy went 6 innings, gave up 2 runs on 5 hits, struck out 5 and walked 1. We started that day with 1/2 game lead over the Twins. Was that a "big game" or not?

You missed the starts against TB which he did decently but lost. The start against Boston. He did well against a Detroit team mailing it in after about 50 hours of rain delays and here the Sox are in a fight for their playoff lives and your guy Javy, the guy who gets paid $2,000,000 a month, hasn't seen the 5th inning against NY or Minnesota on the biggest roadtrip of the season. His 2 shortest starts of his White Sox career. Wow he can shut down the A's, the team that went 40-50 consecutive games without scoring 7 runs. Explain the 11-12 record in 2006 compared to 15-8 in 2007 and 12-15 this year? What about his starts against the Cubs? Those were big games and Javy went in the corner and hid.The guy is a second division pitcher. That's his comfort zone. His ERA in 2006 was higher than league average. It was well below last year, and is average this year, It was higher than average with the Yankees, so basically, maybe its just coincidence, but his ERA is usually higher than average to just about average when he plays with contending teams. BTW, his numbers this season are earily similar to his career totals. He may have a great arm, and good "stuff", but he's a mediocre at best performer as his numbers would indicate.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Dick Allen

[WCSox]

Motivation is overrated

 

Not true. Motivated workers almost always perform better than unmotivated ones. Remember how Freddy performed in meaningful games vs. games in mid-August against the Royals?

 

In Javy's case, talent is overrated because he lacks the motivation to utilize his to reach the next level. One would think that that three years of Mark would've rubbed off on him. Guess not.

Edited September 24, 2008 by WCSox

[BearSox]

Could you imagine how bad our rotation would be next year without Vazquez? He chokes a lot, but as a 4 or 5, he is definitely worth keeping. Plus, when he is going good, he's our best pitcher.

 

I think people are underrating the fact that he might have a dead arm or something along those lines. Radar guns can't always be trusted when it comes to speed.

Edited September 25, 2008 by BearSox

[greg775]

So, is Ozzie still the genius motivator?

 

It didn't work. It failed this time. So the answer to your question is No, at least not this week. I still say it was worth a shot. Maybe if he shut up, Javy would have felt less pressure and cruised. Hard to say.

[scenario]

I personally would like to apologize to anyone I beat on recently for criticizing Javy.

 

He had three consecutive chances to shed the choker image he developed in New York... the inability to win a game under pressure... probably even if he had won just ONE.

 

Instead, he had this three worst games of the season in a row... and cemented his bed-wetting image in stone.

 

So... BlackBetsy, fathom, whitesoxfan101, and anyone else I called out...

 

I'm sorry.

 

You were right.

 

I was wrong.

Edited September 28, 2008 by scenario

[Kyyle23]

Could you imagine how bad our rotation would be next year without Vazquez? He chokes a lot, but as a 4 or 5, he is definitely worth keeping. Plus, when he is going good, he's our best pitcher.

 

I think people are underrating the fact that he might have a dead arm or something along those lines. Radar guns can't always be trusted when it comes to speed.

 

Do you think that Javy would be replaced in house? Come on, give it up now, the two guys you love because of their "stuff" (MacDougal and Vazquez) and routinely praise by saying "....has the best stuff in the pen" cannot get the job done when needed.

 

KW isnt going to drop Vazquez on someone without replacing him with someone else who is competent, and it isnt coming from in-house.

[max power]

I still don't believe javy's recent struggles have anything to do with big games. His so called "s***ting the bed yesterday" happened on good pitchers pitches and balls.

 

He was pitching well and got hit anyway. Someone tell me how that is big game related.

Edited September 28, 2008 by MAX

[Milkman delivers]

I still don't believe javy's recent struggles have anything to do with big games. His so called "s***ting the bed yesterday" happened on good pitchers pitches and balls.

 

He was pitching well and got hit anyway. Someone tell me how that is big game related.

 

Look at his entire f***ing career. He is a loser, an L-7 weenie.

Edited September 28, 2008 by Milkman delivers

[max power]

Looking at his career I see a mediocre pitcher with a ton of Ks. Nothing more.

[Milkman delivers]

Looking at his career I see a mediocre pitcher with a ton of Ks. Nothing more.

 

He also pitches well on bad teams, and pitches badly on good teams.

[santo=dorf]

Could you imagine how bad our rotation would be next year without Vazquez? He chokes a lot, but as a 4 or 5, he is definitely worth keeping. Plus, when he is going good, he's our best pitcher.

 

I think people are underrating the fact that he might have a dead arm or something along those lines. Radar guns can't always be trusted when it comes to speed.

The Sox shouldn't have to settle or be forced with a $12.5 million a year #4 or 5 starter because he's not comfortable in pressure packed situations.

 

If the Sox can get a worthwhile package for Vazquez, I say they dump him.

[knightni]

Javy's been sucking; I believe, because he's been pitched on short rest this last month of the season.

[BlackBetsy]

So... BlackBetsy, fathom, whitesoxfan101, and anyone else I called out...

 

I'm sorry.

 

You were right.

 

I was wrong.

You called me out?

 

On the White Sox e-mail list I'm know to sign off e-mails with "F@#& Javier Vazquez"

 

Happily, I'm 95% sure he will be gone next year, to somewhere like Washington, Cincinnati or Atlanta where he can win meaningless games in peace.

 

(I'm for Javy Vazquez + as much cash as it takes for Lannan or Hanrahan)